Can you believe I've got something _else_ to say re: DS and SG? I can't.
> From the media:
President Clinton yesterday (2/3) signed an executive
order to coordinate federal efforts to address the growing environmental and
economic threat of invasive species. The order instructs federal agencies to
avoid authorizing or funding activities that are likely to cause or promote
the spread of invasive species. It also creates an Invasive Species Council
that is charged to develop a comprehensive plan to minimize the economic,
ecological, and human health impacts of invasive species and to determine
further steps to prevent the introduction and spread of additional invasive
species.
SG/DS Notes
Human colonists/livestock, etc. are Invasive species in most any
pristine planetary ecosystem. Surely some ecosystems have similar
policies as the new US policy. What would a SG/DS scenario where the
planet's indigenous life seeks to evict the newcomers look like? Enemy units
would not be military per se, but anything from insect swarms to killer
plants, to Armored Elephantine Behemoths.
Colonial Notes: Human agriculture is almost definitely going to be "invasive"
to new ecosystems. Part of the challenge of colonial survival is making sure
you can sustain your food. Another thought about the Class M stars is that the
sunlight will be UV poor for green growing things. Perhaps a different take on
the modulation of sunlight is what's really needed. Instead of Satellites
illuminating cities, we need full spectrum 'stadium lights' illuminating
terrestrial crops during the daytime. And Or engineered crops that can thrive
under the new world's conditions.
> Noam R. Izenberg <noam.izenberg@jhuapl.edu> wrote:
Actually, I was under the impression that anything that grows
_doesn't_
need UV light. Which is why humans have melanin and why we burn under sunlight
with UV in it. UV light tends to sterilise and destroy organic molecules, like
DNA and so on. Remember the hole in the ozone layer? The ozone layer filters
out UV light, except where the hole is.
> SG/DS Notes
The was one recent SF story collection (Tuf Voyaging?) that in one story, had
the colonists being attacked by a huge variety of strange creatures every so
often. These war creatures were genetically engineered, psionically, and were
grown to remove the sudden 'plague' of humans.
> On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:18:43PM +1300, Andrew & Alex wrote:
The
> ozone layer filters out UV light, except where the hole is.
Well... the ozone layer doesn't get _all_ UV, and it only
works in a specific band. Some UV _is_ necessary for plants, and for
people. Isn't vitamin D formed in skin by UV light?
Too much of a good thing is bad, but having none of it would
be worse. Planetary colonies in shirt-sleeve climates probably won't
have any problems, but colonies in pressurized environments will
probably have lots of flourescent lights to help with the _lack_
of natural UV.
> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Izenberg, Noam wrote:
> Can you believe I've got something _else_ to say re: DS and SG? I
it must be a trick. he's not the real iceberg!
> Human colonists/livestock, etc. are Invasive species in most any
in my understanding, humans tend to settle on worlds that they have just
terraformed from dead balls of rock and simple organics. this is based on the
assumption that planets in the habitable zone with life are relatively rare,
an assumption for which i have precisely zero evidence. if this is the case,
then the only ecosystem around when humans land will be the one they set up.
i should think that trying to live on a world with another competing biology
would be very, very hard. it would be better adapted for local conditions,
making it really tough for imported bio to get a grip. even
scorhed-earth slash-and-burn policies would have a hard time clearing
the way of native life.
> Surely some ecosystems have similar
ecosystems do not have policies, because ecosystems do not have intelligence
and free will in the same way as human governments.
anyway, to imagine hordes of big things making direct attacks on the invaders
is to completely miss the point about biological warfare. a sentient ecosystem
would respond by sending microorganisms to bring disease the humans and their
crops, to alter the soil they use to make it worthless, to pollute their water
supplies, corrode their metal, devour their plastics, and so on.
> What would a SG/DS scenario where the
pretty boring - "okay, where are the targets? what do you mean, there
are no targets?", "sarge, i feel ill...", "me too...", etc.
> Enemy
very sf, but with a high f component and low s. why would these killer plants
exist before the humans arrive? nature is unlikely to produce
defences against a threat which has not yet arrived - this would require
speculation and forethough, qualities which nature does not possess.
unless we're talking planetary hive-mind here.
> Human agriculture is almost definitely going to be "invasive" to new
the clever option is the judo way - adapt the colonists to eat the local
organisms. engineer symbiotic bacteria for the gut which will break down the
alien molecules and rearrange them into forms humans can use.
> Another thought about the Class M stars is
chlorophyll doesn't absorb light much below 400 nm wavelength; uv light is
stuff below about 350, i think.
> Perhaps a
in which case it is probably cheaper just to grow things in hydroponic farms
with artificial light.
> Or engineered crops that can thrive under the new world's conditions.
much, much cheaper!
> On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Robert Crawford wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 12:18:43PM +1300, Andrew & Alex wrote:
The
> > ozone layer filters out UV light, except where the hole is.
"Provitamin D is converted to Vitamin D3 by the action of ultraviolet light
through our skin". uv light is part of the process by which vitamin d is made.
however, that's not to say it couldn't be done other ways.
> Too much of a good thing is bad, but having none of it would
or just lots of vitamin supplements, or vitamin d in the bread, or
endosymbiotes synthesising it themselves.
Tom
I kind of like the deathworld type idea - many authors have used
the concept and so there is a bunch of backgrounds to choose from. Some
examples are:
David Drake - The future Venus in the Surface Action series where
the high UV has generated a rapid mutation rate the in turn has generated a
fierce ecosystem that is constantly battling with itself and humans are just
obstacles caught in the middle. Check out
the descriptions of the shore bases with howitzers and flame-throwers
to keep -the plants!- from rushing in.
Harry Harrison - The Deathworld trilogy. Another good set for vicious
worlds. It's been a while, but I think one of them was driven by an over mind.
Tuf Voyaging by???(something Martin I think). A story of a trader turned
planetary ecological engineer who intervenes in an escalating ecological war.
Interesting source for the conflict and interesting creatures as weapons.
There are probably others as well and I would interesting in hearing about
them.
These ideas could generate some interesting scenarios - things
like crashing on a death planet and having to get to the research station
alive or basic defense of a colony from the rushing hordes as the last few
colonists are being evacuated, or escorting a scientist to acquire
a "sample" for the bio-weapons division.
--Binhan
[quoted original message omitted]
Thomas, all points good and true, though our experience with
non-terresterial
eco-systems is speculative at best. ;->= A few quibbles, though.
The beasties would be there if the ecology itself were terribly competitive;
no need for hive mind in such a case.
While the quote involving fleas having fleas having fleas resonates in my
mind,
there may be no micro-organism to become a threat to humans, or the body
chemistry may be so different as to make infection impossible.
The latter would suggest that large preditors would find humans unpalatable,
or 'smell' so wrong as to make attack unlikely. Not things I'd like to stake
my life on, though; the dumb brutes might well make mistakes.
Large, established colonies would seem to require the terraforming you'd
suggest, but the smaller ones oft mentioned in GZG, either nascient or
speciality-driven, would tend to take what they find.
All of the above would require special fluff..., er, 'background', but
perfectly
understandable for good scenerio/campaign building.
The_Beast
> Enemy
Human intervention can bring about such a threat, under the right
circumstances. Ever read "Legacy of Heorot", by Niven, Barnes, and Pournelle?
(Spoiler Space, just in case--it's a great book, really!)
The colonists encounter a truly unpleasant creature that they call a
Grendel--fast, nasty, and uses a sort of super-adreneline to make itself
even faster and nastier. It lives mainly off of a small fish-- dubbed a
samlon by the colonists--but is more than happy to devour larger prey.
The first one is unpleasant, and kills a few folks, so they decide to hunt
down and kill all the ones left on their island. Simple, right? Unfortunately,
it turns out that the samlon are immature grendels...and with no one eating
them, most of them get to grow up. The resulting population explosion nearly
has disasterous consequences for the poor humans.
It would be more than possible to game this out ('tho you would need a LOT of
grendel figures), and it would make quite an interesting scenario.
What about waking something up? The Shadows come to mind, lets see, stealth
upto wazoo and a realy mean close assault cap and telapathic weapons.
-Stephen
> On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 devans@uneb.edu wrote:
> The beasties would be there if the ecology itself were terribly
this bugs me; what is it that makes en ecology competitive? it's the organisms
that live in it, surely. thus, you get nasty beasties if there are other nasty
beasties, a sort of evolutionary arms race, much like the one which produced
the dinosaurs. i suppose this could indeed produce some
fearsome animals, but just you wait until the next ice age / big rock
from space...
> While the quote involving fleas having fleas having fleas resonates in
this is true; in fact, i've argued that myself many times. still, i'd have
thought metal and plastic would be vulnerable, even if the colonists weren't.
> Large, established colonies would seem to require the terraforming
ah, the big metal/glass dome approach. fair enough. these places might
well have to put up with uppity locals.
Tom
> i should think that trying to live on a world with another competing
Bear in mind that native life isn't adapted to competing with imports, just
with other natives. If local plant life is on the level of, say, ferns, then
it may be that all we need to do to clear it out is to plant Terran plants.
Earth's plant life has a long history, and there's no obvious reason that what
we find will correspond to present day development, instead of a level
corresponding to 65 million years ago (or ahead).
In a message dated 99-02-06 08:04:21 EST, you write:
<< this is true; in fact, i've argued that myself many times. still, i'd have
thought metal and plastic would be vulnerable, even if the colonists weren't.
> Large, established colonies would seem to require the terraforming
ah, the big metal/glass dome approach. fair enough. these places might
well have to put up with uppity locals.
Tom >> What about the Blite from Outpost 2? that would make an interesting
camp.
-Stephen
> In a message dated 99-02-12 01:11:42 EST, you write:
> -Stephen
Right, but why would it be bigger? Venus Flytraps eat ants. Maybe the planet
has _really_ big ants?
In a message dated 99-02-12 01:11:42 EST, you write:
<< >very sf, but with a high f component and low s. why would these killer
> plants exist before the humans arrive? nature is unlikely to produce
What about the Venus Flytrap? Make it bigger and you can get something that
could make a human a mail cource.
-Stephen
Well the same question could arise for why we had 30 ton carnivores... Hmmm,
because we had 100 ton herbivores.... Because we had 100ft ferns... Because
bigger ferns got more light...
Most things get big because of economies of scale - things like it is
easier to maintain heat (even to the point of overheating) with a larger
biomass, more area for storage of nutrients and energy, more access to food
(able to reach higher or have more power to crack those tough hulled nuts). As
Darwin pointed out, if there is a potential niche, something will develop to
exploit it.
There doesn't have to be an easy rationalized explanation either - think
of
all those parasitic or symbiotic plants/insects that can only survive
with a specific partner. They exist, the results of a long chain of evolution.
There
also exist evolutionary backwaters that deadended but survive today-
i.e.
the coelacanth.
Particularly vicious lifeforms don't really need justification in an
eco-system.
The examples that you find may the last remnants of a dying breed or an
evolutionary dead end. Not everything has to "fit" into an ecosystem
-
think appendix.
As for producing defenses before there is an obvious threat -
cross-reaction.
A new report has found that the probable source for the HIV is a particular
breed of chimpanzees found in Africa. This virus obviously existed before
contact with man and does nothing to the chimpanzee, but when introduced to
man...
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, John C wrote:
> >> Enemy
> to
yes! a great book. plus "dragons of heorot", the sequel, which addresses the
same situation but with lots more brainpower on the alien side. it gets a bit
Lord of the Flies at the end, too.
> (Spoiler Space, just in case--it's a great book, really!)
's true.
yes, now i come to think of it, colonists vs uppity local wildlife is a
classic scenario. it just threatens to be a bit rourke's drift, which is
not much fun in ds2/sg2.
Tom
In a message dated 99-02-12 03:06:47 EST, you write:
<< Right, but why would it be bigger? Venus Flytraps eat ants. Maybe the
planet
has _really_ big ants?
-Buji >>
Or maybe they eat something bigger than ants?
-Stephen