I've seen (somewhere) a page of reviews of SG. many of which compare it to
Warhamster. Anyone know what URL that is? Any listers want to give me a
brief...I said *brief*...review of SG as compared to the other product?
I have also just met some Advanced Squad Leader players. Are there listers who
can provide a (brief) compare&contrast between ASL and SG2?
Tom/Adrian, might you want to put the answers to this on stargrunt.ca
?
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> Any listers want to
Ok, it doesn't get any briefer than this:
WH40K is a game that sucks.
SGII is not.
Slightly longer version:
WH40K is based on Napoleonic tactics, and badly thought out Napoleonic tactics
at that. Their minis
are cartoonish, emphasising skulls and close-combat
weapons. They have over-large arms, heads, and
weapons. Oh, and did I mention they ALL carry close combat weapons? Swords are
the least outre of them, chainsaws and so forth are pretty standard. The rules
are written to revolve around close combat, with an emphasis on "heros" and
"demons" and other creatures which go through regular troops like an
unstoppable force of nature. Weapons ranges are too short for effective fire
combat, with most troops being able to
clear in 3 moves the entire range of 99%+ of all
infantry weapons (24", average move is 4, charge of 8). Many strange troops
(Tyranid, especially) can move double that, effectively making them immune to
fire combat. Most shooting doesn't hit, most hits don't "Wound", and most
wounds don't kill anything but
line troops--"heros" have multiple "wounds". Every
single troop type has some sort of special rule that applies to it for movment
or combat, which means it's unplayable without constant consultation of the
poorly-written rules. How in hell alleged Englishmen
can muck up the English language as badly as is done
in those rules is beyond me. Morale is a non-factor
for some armies (Tyranids) but since there is no middle ground between "just
fine" and "going home" some squads pretty much fall apart after taking a
handful of casualties. No measuring before shooting is permitted, even for
heavy weapons. In the far future, there are no laser rangefinders. Many
weapons, including all indirect fire weapons, operate as follows: Guess how
far away the enemy is. Place the middle of the blast marker exactally that
distance away. Resolve damage. No adjustment is possible. Ranges are really
wierd: Allegedly, ground scale is the same as figure scale, so 1" = 2m
(roughly). So infantry weapons have a max range of 48m and an
effective range of 24m. Shoulder-fired infantry heavy
weapons have a max range of 144m. These same
shoulder-fired heavy weapons are also the primary
armament of many-many tanks. Oh, there's no vehicle
construction system. Instead, you get the Evil Empire's standard vehicles,
none of which were designed with any understanding of how armored fighting
vehicles actually work. So you have tiny
vehicles (predator) sprouting 4-5 weapons systems,
with a 4-man crew and you can see there is physically
no room for a 3-man crew and an engine. You have the
Land Raider, which carries something like 6 heavy
weapons, plus a full squad of 10 power-armored troops.
There's a lot more, but you wanted brevity.
> I have also just met some Advanced Squad Leader
ASL is played on hexmaps with chits and is horribly complicated. It's a fun
game, if and only if you have a LOT of time on your hands. I enjoyed playing
it for
a while, but it's pretty tedious and minutia-obsessed.
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:04:53 -0800 (PST), John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WH40K is based on Napoleonic tactics, and badly
Actually, it's based on ancients tactics, being as it's a medieval combat
system used to conduct "modern" combat.
In the original incarnation it had a "move then fire" turn sequence. Even by
1987, when the game was released, "move then fire" had been discarded by
serious wargame designers.
It was a fun, non-serious game in its first incarnation if you added
"opportunity fire" rules. I also grafted on the Squad Leader turn sequence and
it worked fine. That is, as a skirmish game (30 figures a side).
Unfortunately, it grew into a nasty monster with a runaway arms race, where
the game devolved into one player's high priced uber troops taking on the
other player's high priced uber troops.
It's just itching to be parodied in literary form. Other than as a reference
for such a project, stay as far away from it as possible.
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:15:24 -0500, "Laserlight"
<laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> I have also just met some Advanced Squad Leader players. Are there
ASL is a squad level board game. Counters represent squads, half squads,
individual vehicles, individual leaders, and individual weapons. It's
incredibly complex, with a rulebook well over 400 pages long (though the core
of the game is a lot smaller than that). Game scale is about 50 metres per
hex, if I remember correctly. You may find its lack of command and control
rules a big negative. Morale is a big part of the game, though, and it's full
of all sorts of little fiddly minutae that grognards seem to enjoy.
Stargrunt II is at about the same scale. One figure represents one person, but
in almost all cases individual figures are used to denote a squad's status. In
reality, almost everything is done at the squad level. Ground scale is 10
metres per inch. Command and control, as well as morale, are very important to
the game.
ASL allows for larger games in the same time period as SG2, provided you know
the game rules. ASL is pretty complex, however. I can't overstate this.
That's about as brief as I could put it.
May I add that ASL is really complex AND impossible to learn from just the
rules themselves. (What's worse than complex?)
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:15:24 -0500, "Laserlight"
<laserlight@quixnet.net>
> wrote:
> That's about as brief as I could put it.
That'd be Arcane.
FWIW, ASL does play pretty well - but you DO need a veteran (ASL) to
teach it to you.
And on the plus side for ASL is the VASL project
(http://www.militarygameronline.com/vasl/) which is a graphical front
end for playing net games of ASL.
> Jim Callahan wrote:
> May I add that ASL is really complex AND impossible to learn from just
> the rules themselves. (What's worse than complex? )
> Jim wrote:
I agree with that. I got a huge pile of ASL stuff before I came across DS and
SG. I can play DS and SG:), but still don't understand ASL:(.
> At 02:59 22/01/02 +1300, Andrew Martin wrote:
I didn't understand it, I just played it and let someone else sweat over
the rules:)
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 02:06:35 -0600 Allan Goodall <agoodall@att.net>
wrote:
> It's [WH40K] just itching to be parodied in literary form. Other than
<Snicker> I'll have to send my son -- he of "Plasma Cannons of Gor"
fame <eg> that message. He has several stories, albeit some only
half-finished, in which GW troops and ships encounter their FT/SG
counterparts -- and one ginormous extremely intelligent space-going
squid <g>. Funny stuff.
Or there is always Tom Miller's "A Little SG2 Tale" which should be in the
list archives somewhere. Tom states in the intro that the story came about
because he was "really, REALLY bored" at work; somehow, that quote seems
appropriate when discussing WH40K...
Phil
----
> At 10:35 AM +0000 1/22/02, Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
I went looking for this in the archives. I can find references to it and even
its title in the archive list. But I can't find the actual story in the files.
Strangely, using google, I found the same headers in 1996 and 1998.
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:38:51AM -0500, Ryan Gill wrote:
Assuming we're talking about the same thing here...
It's at http://stargrunt.netfirms.com/groundzero.html , credited to "Tom
Sullivan". The 1997 list archive contains it as the last message
(chronologically), with these headers:
From: "Tom Miller" <starkfist@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <19971231221247.17513.qmail@hotmail.com>
Subject: A bit of SGII Fiction
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:12:45 PST
and this preamble before the material at the URL I just gave:
So here's the story: I've been at work all week long, and I have been really,
REALLY bored. Really. Thus, what follows was born. Enjoy. And yes, I am
tempted to apologize for that last line, but what the hell! It sounded good at
the time.
Fair warning, by the by: The following contains curses, and lots of them.
Under the circumstnaces, they seem not so much appropriate as they do
mandatory.
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:22:53 +0000 Roger Burton West
> <roger@firedrake.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:38:51AM -0500, Ryan Gill wrote:
> I went looking for this in the archives. I can find references to it
> Assuming we're talking about the same thing here...
> It's at http://stargrunt.netfirms.com/groundzero.html , credited to
[Snip]
Yep, that's it.
Phil
----
I've just been reading the "fluff" about the an encounter between the Tau and
the Imperium, seems about the same! Especially the effect of the Hypervelocity
Railgun on the Rhino.
<SNIP>
> It's at http://stargrunt.netfirms.com/groundzero.html ,
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On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:28:55 -0800, Michael Llaneza
<maserati@earthlink.net> wrote:
> FWIW, ASL does play pretty well - but you DO need a veteran (ASL) to
Not precisely...
I haven't played it in ages. I do, however, have the self-training
stuff. There's "Paratrooper", which helps a lot. It takes you through the
basics of the game in a pretty easy to learn, programmed method. I also have
the article from The General which teaches you almost all the rules in a
programmed method. You can learn the game using this one package and the
articles. It's very hard just by reading the rules (to be honest, it can be
done; I learned
SQL by reading the IBM SQL/VS manual...).
On the other hand, I learned the basics of Stargrunt after the second turn of
my first game. I can do pretty much all the same stuff, although at a smaller
scale, in a shorter time period. It's more fun since I'm at an age when I
don't have the amount of time to devote to these things as I'd like. I'm
considering selling my ASL stuff for that reason.
> Allan Goodall wrote:
I felt learning SQL was easier than ASL.
> I'm considering selling my ASL stuff for that reason.
Me, too! Got a stack of stuff that anyone can have for $100.00 or there
abouts.
Seeing as how this apparently disappeared into the aether the first time
around, I figured I'd send it again...not that the question hasn't already
been answered.
> At 08:15 PM 1/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
Briefly? SGII has a reasonably realistic feel, while Warhammer is more
cinematic. Lots of close combat, bigger-than-life heroes, and Things
Blowing Up Real Good. The actual rules are something of an impediment to
that style of play, though -- 40K is filled with special rules and
fiddly bits unique to the various races. For those who haven't memorized the
various army books, play can be rather slow.
SGII generally sees turns advance more quickly, but less happens in them.
Units get pinned down by fire, so they don't advance as quickly. Fire
isn't as devistating, either -- you generally can't wipe out an entire
unit with a single turn of fire. As a result of this, SGII often *seems* to
move more slowly than 40K...at least, this is a common complaint.
In terms of actual rules, I prefer SGII. 40K requires too many die rolls,
and it has that annoying "You Move/I Move" turn sequence, instead of
alternating activating individual units like SGII does. Plus, there's all
those aforementioned fiddly bits....
I do, however, prefer the cinematic style of play over the realistic one
LOL- 40K WAS AND IS A FAST, FUN AND NON SERIOUS SET OF RULES IF YOU
SORT THROUGH ALL OF THE TACKED ON WONDERFULNESS. IT IS FOR AN ENTIRELY
DIFFERENT MINDSET THAN THE SG II UNIVERSE.
MY FRIENDS AND I STILL PLAY 40K;RT (MODIFIED) AND HAVE A PLEASANT TIME.
AND THIS DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH SG II GAMES EITHER.
STARGUARD PROVIDES A FUN AND RELATIVELY FAST SCI-FISKIRMISH GAME USING
VEHICLES ARTILLERY, SUPPORT WEAPONS, ROBOTS AND GRUNTS.
INTERSTELLAR MARINE STARSHIP BOARDING ACTION RULES PROVIDE FUN AND
SEMI-SERIOUS GAMES INVOOLVING AHIP TO SHIP AND LIMITED GROUND COMBAT
YOU WANT SEMI-SERIOUSNESS IN A GRUNT WAR GAME PLAY SG II.
LOL, BUT IT IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE REAL COMBAT EITHER - IT IS JUST A
TABLE TOP GAME.
AND A SUPERIOR ONE TOO.
BUT. . .
IF YOU WANT TO EXPERIENCE REALISM IN COMBAT, SIGN UP, GET TRAINED AND GO FIGHT
IN SOME 3RD THROUGH 7TH WORLD SHITHOLE.
OTHERWISE, JUST PLAY GAMES AND HAVE FUN.
I HAVE A PRETTY GOOD FEEL FOR RULES AS I HAVE BEEN SCI-FI GAMING SINCE
ABOUT 73 OR 74, AND HAVE PLAYED SETS OF RULES OLDER THAN SOME LIST MEMBERS I
SUSPECT. LISTED BELOW IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER ARE THE ONES THAT POP TO MIND
THAT ARE MOST MEMORABLE:
STARGUARD, SPACE MARINE (FGU, NOT GW), INTERSTELLAR MARINE, SPACE PATROL,
SPACE OPERA, STRIKE FORCE ALPHA, LASER GRENADIERS, STRIKER, 40K;RT, LASERBURN,
TRAVELLER, SNAPSHOT, MULTIPLE HOME MADE AND FREE SETS OFF THE WWW, ETC.
ONE OF OUR CURRENT FUN GAMES IS BUGS FROM 2 HOURWARGAMES, AND ANOTHER IS
WASTELAND WARRIORS FROM THE SAME SOURCE.
WE ALSO USE WHAT WE CALL TACTICAL RPGING IN ALL OF OUR GAMES AND SCENARIOS.
JUST SOME THOUGHTS!
BADDAWG
> LOL- 40K WAS AND IS A FAST, FUN AND NON SERIOUS SET OF RULES IF YOU
LOL no thanks been there done that, got the t-shirt...
> OTHERWISE, JUST PLAY GAMES AND HAVE FUN.
How did you ever game by candle light?..........I'm in awe! (LOL)
LOL-DON, AS YOU WELL KNOW, I HAVE THE T-SHIRT TOO!
AND NO DESIRE TO GET A RE-ISSUE!
IT WAS ROUGH GAMING BY CANDLE LIGHT!
WHEN COAL OIL LANTERNS APPEARED IT WS STILL RISKY, BUT MUCH BETTER!
400 EA 25MM BAD GUYS TO PAINT SOUNDS LIKE FUN.
I HAVE WELL OVER 200 PAINTED 28MM DERVISHES WITH GUNS TO FIGHT MY OWN 100 PLUS
EGYPTIAN INFANTRY, CAVALRY, CAMELRY, AND GUNS.
YOU WANT A SG II GAME?
PLOP OUT 100 PLUS STAR GRUNTS AND 300-400 BAD GUYS, BUGS, ETC, AND ROCK!
BAD GUY RESURRECTION RULES IN EFFECT!
WITH VEHICLES, FIRESUPPORT, ETC!
A REAL COMPANY SIZED BATTLE!
WAHOOOOOOO!
BADDAWG
Dawgface...
...excuse my asking, but has your SHIFT key stuck or something?
I find texts written in nothing but capital letters to be a mite difficult to
read, so I tend to delete them on sight rather than read them...
Regards,
In a message dated Wed, 23 Jan 2002 4:18:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> writes:
> Dawgface...
I'm on several lists with him. He simply has bad attacks of arthritis (is that
right, Dawg?) and has trouble using the shift key when that happens. Its just
a case of ignoring how it looks when he posts that way. Many of his posts are
worth reading despite the ugly look of the caps.
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 04:32:08PM -0500, JRebori682@aol.com wrote:
I don't know how much trouble this is with the webtv interface, but I
strongly recommend posting in all-lower-case rather than all-caps if
this happens - it's what several people I know from Usenet do, and it
certainly seems to contribute to readability.
NOPE. SHIFT KEY WORKS FINE.
I AM TYPING WITH ONE HAND ONE FINGER DUE TO SEVERE ARTHRITUS ACTING UP.
WHEN I AM ABLE TO USE BOTH HANDS AND TYPE NORMALLY I WILL BE GLAD TO DO SO.
JUST BEAR WITH ME, OR DELETE, YOUR CHOICE.
HAVE A NICE DAY BUDDY!
DAWGIE
JRebor wrote and Dawg confirmed:
> > Dawgface...
OK. I strongly agree with Roger though - all lower-case is much easier
to
read than all-upper case.
From: "John Crimmins" <johncrim@voicenet.com>
> (I do like bits of the 40K background -- especially since they've
Returning to the Rogue Trader roots. Some of the original illos showed the
inner sanctum of the Emperor in very Geigeresque style. It called into
question whether this was the lesser of two Evils.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:12:40 +1100 Alan and Carmel Brain
> <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au> wrote:
> From: "John Crimmins" <johncrim@voicenet.com>
> Returning to the Rogue Trader roots. Some of the original illos
That was a _question_? The 40K background _never_ looked to have any
good guys in it. The Imperium is a bunch of power-mad religious
fanatics; the Eldar are ruthless survivalists with the usual superiority
complex; I'm not even going to bother describing the Orks
and the Tyranids; the various Chaos/Dark Whatever forces are, by
definition, evil; and I've seen nothing to make me think the Tau are any
better.
The whole concept of the 40K universe is a Dark Future(tm) in which There Is
Only War(tm). There is no optimism, no honour (only twisted reflections of
it), no trust, and the whole thing "works" purely on the basis of Might Makes
Right.
That's one of the reasons why I loathe GW. This is not a concept that I think
should be aimed at children.
Phil
----
> At 10:10 AM +0000 1/24/02, Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
Umm, the Squats were generally good. They mostly wanted to be left to mine
their ores and build their technology. They eeked out a living on high grav
worlds that everyone else didn't want. Sounds pretty benign to me. They even
pretty much got along with the Imperium (for the most part)....
> The whole concept of the 40K universe is a Dark Future(tm) in which
Squats had lots of Honor.
> That's one of the reasons why I loathe GW. This is not a concept that I
Heh....Things were better when there were squats...imho....
I agree, and you will note they are the one stand-alone race that GW cut
and never brought back. :-)
Bill former squat player (circa 1991)
Ryan Gill
<rmgill@mindspring.com> To:
gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Sent by: cc:
owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Be Subject: Re:
[SG] comparing SG
rkeley.EDU
01/24/02 08:45 AM
Please respond to gzg-l
> At 10:10 AM +0000 1/24/02, Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
Umm, the Squats were generally good. They mostly wanted to be left to mine
their ores and build their technology. They eeked out a living on high grav
worlds that everyone else didn't want. Sounds pretty benign to me. They even
pretty much got along with the Imperium (for the most part)....
> The whole concept of the 40K universe is a Dark Future(tm) in which
Squats had lots of Honor.
> That's one of the reasons why I loathe GW. This is not a concept that I
Heh....Things were better when there were squats...imho....
> At 07:12 PM 1/24/02 +1100, you wrote:
Well, he does have to eat people's brains -- sorry, *minds* -- in order
to survive. Frankly, I figure that at this point the Emperor just want's to
die...and if you guess that he's unconsciously telepathically broadcasting
that death-wish to the rest of humanity, it exaplins a good bit of the
background.
> At 10:10 AM 1/24/02 +0000, you wrote:
I've gotten the impression that the Tau are supposed to be at least somewhat
better. The idea of the Tau being a civilization on the rise
here it is.
now, want to be that some one objects to this too?
i have been in this movie off and on for a couple of years now.
dawgie
the slann and a couple of others were proposed and either never got developed
just faded away....
dawgie
I object!!!!!!!
i fInD ThAt uNLeSS a MeSsAGe iS tYpEd iN eNtiReLY MiXeD cAsE iT cAuSeS mY
hEmoRrHOiDs tO ThRoB uNCOntRolLaBly dO tO mY unconscious aNaL cOnTraCtiONs.
pLeASE tYPE onLY USIng mIXED cASe!!!!!
A very, very big ;-)
Scott
> From: DAWGFACE47@webtv.net
On 25-Jan-02 at 12:31, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net (DAWGFACE47@webtv.net)
wrote:
> here it is.
I would guess that if some poor fool feels the need to slam you about using
all lower case there are many people on the list that will "gently" correct
them.
Thank you, this is much easier to read.
> Roger Books wrote:
Depends on how you define "Gently". I have a low tolerance for anyone who
doesn't have empathy for the struggles of others. Call it a weakness of
mine, but I have good personal reason for feeling that way.
> On 25-Jan-02 at 13:48, Brian Bilderback (bbilderback@hotmail.com) wrote:
I was thinking of J.A.s soft spoken and polite corrections.:)
> Roger Books wrote:
> > Depends on how you define "Gently". I have a low tolerance for
That works for me.
LOL!
OK sMoKiNg JoE!
FlAmE oFf!
<:O)
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Too funny, dawgface!
Sounds like you've played a lot of good SF games over the years. I too have
the Starguard and Space Marine books tucked away in my basement. Did you ever
play Alien Space or the Star Fleet Battle Manual from Zocci games?
I'm stuck on GZG games. Simple and fun, which tends to annoy the rules lawyer
types.
yep!
got those rules in a footlocker in the attic.
i like SG too, but most folks are diehard 40kers.... sigh.
my friend bob has been working on a modified version of SG and 2 hour wargames
BUGZ for human vs alien bugz warfare.
like me, and no doubt others, he is using plastic 40k genestealers for bugz.
i also use plastic toy bugs (ants and roaches) mostly-about 1/2' to 1"
long for some games, as well as plastic spiders.
i am very curious about the GZG bugs without guns i have seen pix of on the
eureka site.
also the irregular and pendraken bugs without guns.
would any of these bugs make a respectable looking buggy opponent for IG size
(28mm) human soldiers and militia and civilians?
(i have lots of 40K ig, space pirates, gangers, as well as WZ soldiers, VOID,
etc)
are these very expensive? and where to find them in the USA?
G'day,
> would any of these bugs make a respectable looking buggy opponent for
Yep!! We've got a stack of them and they work out very nicely. The top of
their beaky bit is about 1.5x as tall as a 25mm fig.
Cheers
> > here it is.
I second that :-)
(I usually refrain from "Me too" posts, but since I was the one who first
objected to Dawg's all-upper-case posts I think it's warranted this time
<g> )
Later,
I never liked all the "traditional Fantasy stuff" in that game. (WH40K)
I
never bought any, just reading the back of the box/books was enough to
put me off. Mixing SF with fantasy always seemed like a bad idea. (maybe
because it is so hard to do well.)
I never understood why the "bad guys" races all had to look "exceedingly ugly"
boardering on "horrific". Other settings games is afflicted with
this as well. (latest I know of: Starwars -- Youzan vong invasion...I
am not spelling it right.)
About the only thing from WH40K I liked was their space battle
games...Reading articals about new ships/weapons/ect. would give me
ideas for my own games. Its simple enough that you could almost drag stuff
across to another game without translation...
Donald Hosford
> Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 19:12:40 +1100 Alan and Carmel Brain