[semi-VV] Multiple resources - was RE: Game balance

4 posts ยท Feb 4 2005 to Feb 7 2005

From: B Lin <lin@r...>

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 15:27:09 -0700

Subject: [semi-VV] Multiple resources - was RE: Game balance

That is more of an issue of game play rather than a problem with
mechanics - for instance, if you have players who play Monopoly and lose
every time because they refuse to purchase any properties, it's not a problem
with the rules, but a problem with how you play.

I don't think the game system should be auto-balancing, otherwise why
play? If the game system is intentionally designed to produce equal results
regardless of what the players do, then you simply flip a coin for eah
campaign and winner takes all.

The point of multiple resources as a cost factor was to add variety -
would monopoly play the same if instead of just property, you could invest in
stocks, take loans other than mortgages or cut deals outside of game
resources? In the end power is power and should win, but how you get that
power should be challenging. The game rules should not
stop people from making bad decisions, as that happens in real-life all
the time, and part of the gaming process is learning what works and what
doesn't within the rule set.

In your example, if Nation B gives up it's Quadlithium mines without a fight,
then that's a strategic error. But if Nation B fights so hard that when A
finally does capture them, it has expended so much time and effort that Nation
C, even if it has to pay for both FTL and weapons, comes in and cleans up both
since it has been conserving its military
resources during the fight.  Or alternatively, A can co-operate with B
and trade Unobtanium for Quadlithium and both can benefit without depleting
their miltaries. If there is a single type point costfor ships and no reason
to negotiate with others, then it won't happen.

An example of why having a single specific resource can have a major
impact on a wide scale; before the 1800's the black gooey tar-like
substance that oozed from the ground was pretty useless, now it is a material
of strategic importance. The material didn't change, but nation's requirements
for it did, making once backwater countries major players in the modern
political arena. If you abstract that gooey substance to "energy cost" then
the US would never have become dependent on foreign oil as our coal, wood, and
other indigenous fuel sources are huge. We still have huge untapped reserves
of oil in the form of oil shales and hard to reach deposits, but because we
have negotiated a cheap price from overseas we have become dependent on those
oil imports, and thus vulnerable to their whims. We have to treat smaller,
less militarily powerful countries like Ecquador, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela,
UAE and other oil-producing countries with respect because they hold
power over this! critical resource. Why don't we just go in and take this
valuable resource? Because they have other friends who would prefer that such
a resource remain in a variety of "independent" hands rather than monopolized
by a single nation.

Historically, critical materials or lack thereof have played a major
role in shaping military plans and equipment - some WW2 examples
-Germany's chronic shortage of oil, lack of key metals like tungsten or
lack of heavy water to devlop atomic power, Russia's shortage of aluminum and
lightweight metals, and Japan's shortage of just about everything. By having
critical materials, you will have motivation to defend or attack certain
systems vs. others, not just what happens to be the best strategic bottleneck.
In addition, there is motivation to negotiate with other nations to get what
you need peacefully rather than constantly being on the attack and defense;
therefore politics and economic factors will have a greater role in
determining objectives, not just strict military values.

Optimally, every nation wants to be completely self-sufficient and many
strive to achieve that. But self-sufficiency leads to stagnation - for
example Medieval to 19th century Japan. As we have seen throughout history,
that the greatest growth of countries happens when they open themselves to the
world. I feel that the game system should reflect that tone, with trade and
interaction producing greater results than isolation, and that military action
should not be the only method for achieving goals but that the most effective
method will be a combination of economic, military and diplomatic maneuvers
that gain the most for the nation with the least amount of effort and
resources.

To paraphrase Sun Tzu, to win a thousand battles is not the acme of skill, the
best is to win the battle before it is fought.

--Binhan

[quoted original message omitted]

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 10:18:41 +0100

Subject: Re: [semi-VV] Multiple resources - was RE: Game balance

> Binhan Lin wrote:

> That is more of an issue of game play rather than a problem with

> the rules, but a problem with how you play.

Very much so; and as long as *all* players play the game exactly in the way
the designer who distributed the various resources intended, a "multiple

resource"-style game can work fine. Unfortunately there's almost
invariably some players who *don't* play it that way.

Eg., your example where A and B trade with one another and thus get a
mutual benefit - *both* of them get cheap FTL drives and cheap beams -
has a direct parallell in GW's "Blood Royale", where Italy and Spain usually

set up a highly lucrative trade (Italian Luxuries and Food for Spanish Iron
and Semi-Luxuries) allowing them to cash in more money than the other
kingdoms can... money with which they can buy armies to protect their
resource-producing areas, and quite soon also go on the offensive. (OK,
technically the other three kingdoms could get a total of 130 gold per turn
vs. Spain/Italy's 120, but the trade negotiations to pull that 130-gold
deal off are so hairy that I've never actually seen it happen... and if it
*should* happen, either of Spain and Italy can stop it in its tracks by
invading Provence.)

> I don't think the game system should be auto-balancing, otherwise why

It shouldn't be *completely* auto-balancing - ie., an advantage gained
shouldn't automatically be *completely* negated by the game mechanics -
but if there are *no* mechanics to rein in the leader, you usually end up with
a "campaign" which is decided by the first few battles. Such campaigns tend
to be very short, since non-leading players usually drop out soon after
it becomes obvious who'll win.

Regards,

From: Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@w...>

Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 01:34:29 +1100

Subject: Re: [semi-VV] Multiple resources - was RE: Game balance

> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:

> It shouldn't be *completely* auto-balancing - ie., an advantage gained

> shouldn't automatically be *completely* negated by the game mechanics

> up with a "campaign" which is decided by the first few battles. Such

Concur.

See "Imperium" which managed this quite well.

From: Rrok Anroll <coldnovemberrain_2000@y...>

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:32:01 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: [semi-VV] Multiple resources - was RE: Game balance

Another good example would be the BBS game Trade Wars 2002

> --- Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@webone.com.au> wrote:

> See "Imperium" which managed this quite well.