[Semi-OT] Blackhawk Down

3 posts ยท Jan 26 2002 to Jan 26 2002

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:46:29 -0500

Subject: [Semi-OT] Blackhawk Down

Diplomacy Incarnate said: Oh, and as far as "Chickenshit", anyone who's
actually held a loaded weapon can tell you that having your safety on at all
times is a way of preventing death and serious injury. As a matter of fact,
not haivng his safety on was the reason a kid from the Service Battery of our
supporting artillery BN in Kosovo put a 5.56mm round through the chest of an 8
year old boy.

I reply: John, there are several ways this kind of catastrophe can be
prevented. These track back to and include not having your finger inside the
trigger gaurd and having a well designed weapon (some weapons are actually
poorly enough designed as to go off when dropped or banged on something a
little less gently). Having said that, a
safety _can_ be a useful thing.

However, your statement is overstatement. (Surprise!). The RCMP in Canada uses
a
Smith and Wesson (IIRC) semi-automatic
pistol. That particular model
_has_no_safety_. And these are police
whose principal function is the protection of the public and who do not shoot
when they have any kind of concern over where the round might go,
obstructions, richochets, marginal hit percentages, etc. They have safety as a
main concern, but they carry one up the spout and no safety. Why might they do
this? (No, stupidity isn't it).

The fact is a safety is a mechanical component that requires user operation at
a key moment. Two problems arise from this: 1) it might jam (sometimes do)
thus making the weapon unable to fire when it needs to and 2) the user might
(in a moment of surprise or tension) forget to take it off or be incapable of
it. Even trained soldiers and police have this problem under stress. So, by
eliminating the safety, they eliminate this potentially lethal set of
problems. Yes, it requires that
you handle the weapon with respect -
anyone who does not is an idiot. You keep it ALWAYS pointed away from things
you don't consider expendable. You keep your finger out of the trigger gaurd
until you mean to punch one into someone. You
have a heavy enough pull-weight that the
trigger won't easily depress accidently. You have a well enough designed
weapon that a bang or bump won't set it off. You use stable ammunition. Do
these things, and the odds of a mishap are very minimal (probably less than
the odds of the two problems I described at the beginning, which is what the
RCMP think anyway).

Oh, and for the record, some weapons have very bad design. I have heard (no
verification) that some early (perhaps even current?) models of the IMI desert
eagle series had a small part related to the safety which fit in the weapon in
two ways. One of which made the safety operable. The other of which rendered
it inoperable and (I forget) may have disabled the weapon. But you couldn't
tell if you weren't super careful and this was often screwed up under field
conditions.

The Delta Dude was being Hollywood or
Gung-Ho, but the point remains. The best
safety is a combination of good equipment design and a smart operator. [1]

Tomb.

[1] Safeties like the Thumb Safety on some
.45 ACP pistols aren't so bad. And police in some states have sworn by them
(although I've often wondered how you could actually hold the.45 without
having depressed that
safety - apparently you can and this has
saved several police officers who've had their own weapon taken from them).

From: Richard and Emily Bell <rlbell@s...>

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:26:14 -0500

Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Blackhawk Down

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> I reply:

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:16:43 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Blackhawk Down

> --- Thomas Barclay <kaladorn@magma.ca> wrote:

I feel strongly about not shooting people that aren't hostile.

> I reply:

Yeah. And if pogues were all good soldiers, we wouldn't have this problem
either. The thing is, you can't have one set of rules for idiots and another
for
non-idiots.

> take it off or be incapable of it. Even

If you can't operate a safety reliably (M-16 safety is
NOT complex) you don't deserve to carry in the first place. It's just a simple
switch.