(Semi OT) Article on Wargamers

Some may be interested in an article appearing on the National Review
Online website dealing with war gamers and their knowledge/affect on
civil policy in light of recent events. Very positive article titled;
Wargames, Computer Geeks and War.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel100101.shtml

J.S.

> Jeff Stone wrote:

> Some may be interested in an article appearing on the National Review
Wargames,
> Computer Geeks and War.

He lost me when he said "arabs had not produced a great military leader, or
great military force in a very,very, very long time". He seems to be
blissfully ignorant of the egyptians of 1973 that would have completely gutted
the Israeli armed forces if the US had not shipped in as much materiel as they
did. Sadat was defeated by the US, not by Israel. For reasons of their own,
the Soviets stopped providing support, so Egypt had to back down.

> He lost me when he said "arabs had not produced a great military

Not my period of interest, but as I recall, the Egyptians attacked on Yom
Kippur, crossed the Suez and pretty much stopped there, instead of exploiting
their advantage while Israel mobilized. Once the Israel got moving, they
counterattacked, cut off the Egyptian army and were headed for Cairo (and
Damascus). The US didn't intervene until that happened. It was US and Soviet
intervention that saved the *Egyptian* army from being destroyed. If you mean
"the US had been supplying materiel all along", that was hardly a secret. I
grant you the Egyptians managed to get through the Israeli defensive line (Bar
Lev?), and that Sadat was a pretty good political leader, but I still wouldn't
say this qualifies as great generalship.

I was looking for "Great Moslem Victories" to use as names for the IF heavy
cruisers (Hattin class). There was Khartoum, but as I recall Gordon was
outnumbered about 10 to 1. The one before that was Famagusta, in 1571, and
again the Turks outnumbered the Venetians about 10 to 1. Even if you allow
those as examples of great
armies--I'll use them as names but I wouldn't say they were great
armies or great leaders--it's still a long stretch.
Let's see, I might accept:
Sultan Mahomet II (captured Constantinople 1453--sorry John A)--a Turk
Timur i Leng (around 1400)--a Mongol
Sultan Qutuz, (1260)--defeated the Mongols at Ain Jalut -- his
Mamelukes probably thought of themselves as Turks
Jalal ed Din (1231)--a Khwarizmian, I gather a pretty good general who
was unfortunate in having the Mongols as his opponent The great generals of
Syria and Anatolia from Manzikert to the Crusades (Suleiman, Alp Arslan, Imad
ed Din Zenghi, Nur ed Din, Shirkuh, Saladin) were Turks and Kurds.
Murabits and Almohades (1000-1270 or so) had a few Arabs but were
mostly Mahgribi Berber and Tuareg as I recall
Mahmud the Great  (1001)--Ghaznavid, part of Afghanistan now I think
Buyid dynasties (around 950)--Dailami--I don't know of any great
victories but they were the favored army of one of the top players on the DBM
list a few years ago, presumably he had a reason for picking them.

The Fatimids (990 or so)--conquered Egypt and held it until Saladin; I
don't know that the Fatimid army counts as "great" but at least it was
successful at one point. That's the most recent example of a successful Arab
army that occurs to me.

> I don't know of any great victories but they were the favored army of

I would guess the reason for picking them was more their table-top
performance than any historical achievements. In DBM, the link between
competition successes of an army and their historical performance is pretty
weak (as, I suspect, is the case for most ancient/medieval wargames
rules).

> The Fatimids (990 or so)--conquered Egypt and held it until Saladin; I

Other Moslem, rather than Arab, successes: The various Afghan wars WWI.:
Gallipoli and repulsing the British expedition to Bagdad

For Arab successes, the Saudi conquest of Arabia (1920's) and the guerilla war
against the Turks in WWI (known through Lawrence of Arabia) could be cited.

Greetings

> Other Moslem, rather than Arab, successes:

ok

> For Arab successes, the Saudi conquest of Arabia (1920's)

I guess if it's Arabs fighting Arabs, then the Arabs will be successful either
way. I'd accept the first Saudi king as being a great leader, although the
Islamic Federation (which overthrew the House of Sa'ud) would rather that no
one mentioned it

> and the guerilla
could be cited.

Laserlight schrieb:
> > and the guerilla

Well, it's been quite a time since I read the "Seven pillars of Wisdom" or saw
the film, but the Sherif of Mecca seems to have been a pretty wily politician
if not perhaps that much of a military leader. Also there were various Bedouin
scheiks, who seem to have been quite skilled at their style of warfare.

Greetings

> KH Ranitzsch wrote:

[Re: Dailami]
> >I don't know of any great victories but they were the favored army of

Yep. That's pretty inevitable when you fight equal-points battles rather

than historical re-fights - the entire point with an equal-point battle
is that both sides should (ideally) have an equal chance of winning... but in
reality it is rather more common to have one side significantly larger than
the other :-/

Dailami troops seem to have fought as mercenaries all over the Muslim parts of
Asia, but their own states and dynasties appearently didn't last very long.

Later,

> Yep. That's pretty inevitable when you fight equal-points battles
but in
> reality it is rather more common to have one side significantly larger

"Be there the firstest with the mostest"--I think that was Nathan
Bedford Forrest

> Dailami troops seem to have fought as mercenaries all over the Muslim

It was the "mercenary" part that made me think they're good troops--they
served the Fatimids, for example. The DBM player struck me as the sort who was
likely to know the history, but I'm drawing a blank on his name and it's been
a couple of years since I

[quoted original message omitted]

> The Algerians were also very successful at sea well into the 17th

Also.the liberation of Algeria from French colonial rule count be counted as
an Arab success.

Greetings