I've noticed that there's a really high-speed writeup
of a NAC light infantry batallion up on Stargrunt.ca. I've been considering
writing up a NAC mechanized batallion in the same level of detail.
Most things are pretty simple. I mean, every precursor service (CF, USA,
British Army) has 3 rifle companies of 3 platoons. Everyone has a mortar
platoon, everyone has a batallion staff, everyone has weapons assets (although
that will require some fiddling to make me happy).
The Scouts are driving me nuts, though. Everyone pretty much agrees a
mechanized batallion needs a scout platoon. No one agrees on what capabilities
or organization it should have.
Old US was 6 Bradleys with 4 dismounts each.
New US is 10 HMMWVs with 2 dismounts each.
Brits have some light tanks (6?? I don't recall).
Canadians have Lynxs (9, IIRC).
Older organizations include a wide variety of jeeps, light tanks, armored
cars, recoiless rifles on jeeps, APCs, halftracks, medium tanks, and whatever
else happened to be handy.
So, what should it be and why?
Keeping in mind the missions of the batallion scout platoon, let me know what
you think. I'll take the best responses and try and synthesize some workable
MTOE.
Possible Scout Missions:
1. Find'em (Basic "Where are they now?") 2. Flank guard (Enough fire power to
by time) 3. Guide ("Just follow me to your Battle position")
4. Diversionary force (Make enough noise/Fire/etc to be mistaken for a
larger force) 5. Rapid reaction force ("Plug the Line!!", needs enough
firepower to make a difference) 6. Commander's guard (Yes, this has been a use
for scouts) 7. Route Recon (including all that Engineer stuff) 8. Rear Guard
(see flank guard)
1,3,7 needs lots of eyes/mobility (hence 10 Hummers) 2,4,5,8 needs the
ability
to FIGHT (hence Bradleys/AC). FM 17-95 (Cavalry) has more detail.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 4:57 PM -0700 8/7/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Or ferrets or foxes. The use of the Saracens with the Ferrets in service made
for a very good scouting and pursuit.
WWII recce units in british service had
Recce Troop: 4 Armored Cars, 2 sections of 3 Carriers
3 Recce troops and an Assault troop made up a Recce Squadron. 3 Recce
Squadrons had an HQ troop with 6 mortars, 8 AT guns, and additional
maintenance and commo assets.
Personally, my NAC units have the following:
Recce Squadron:
5 sections of 3 vehicles. x2 size two wheeled armored cars armed with an RFAC
and a GMS. And 1 Size 3 Armored car with dismount capacity.
They get organized as either 5 sections of 3 or in pairs depending on the
mission and expected problems.
Hi John,
> The Scouts are driving me nuts, though. Everyone
Current CF Mech Recce units use the Coyote. Lynxs are gone (I'm pretty sure
they're all gone by now...).
The Coyote is a version of the LAV, specifically I think a version of the LAV
II (as opposed to the LAV I, which is what the Marine Corps uses, and the LAV
III which is the new CF APC, and is being bought by the US as their new
wheeled vehicle). The Coyote has the 25mm cannon turret, but the rear
compartment is full of recce gear. It has a (20m??)(40m??) mast with radar,
IR, LI sensors that can extend up above trees, etc. It also carries a dismount
package of similar sensor gear, attached to the vehicle with a power cable of
a hundred or so meters, so the recce troopers can take it into a hide while
the vehicle is behind a hill or something. Anyway, my
friend who is an ex-armoured recce type says that their recce units were
based around 7 vehicles - three teams of two, and the troop commander's
vehicle (remember CF and Brit "troop" = US "platoon"... the CF and Brits,
and IIRC Aussies, don't have armoured "companies" - they go
troop/squadron/regiment for platoon/company/battalion).
That was, however, for an armoured recce unit. The CF infantry battalions all
have a recce platoon, whether or not they're mechanized, and I think when
they're in mech vehicles, they organize similarly.
(Incedentally, strategypage.com is reporting that a Canadian sniper has taken
over the "longest range confirmed sniper kill" from Carlos Hathcock's famous
.50 cal shot from '67 or so.... the Canadian was one of the snipers assigned
to the Recce Platoon of the 3rd Battalion, PPCLI, just now coming home from
Afghanistan. I think the actions in question were during Operation Anaconda,
when CF snipers were assigned to a US recce unit to support the US ground
forces, or something like that. The shot was about 2.4 km, which is pretty
close to a mile and a half...)
I'd suggest that they're given vehicles of the "upgunned APC" type, rather
than the "MBT" or "Baby MBT" type. They have to be able to fight if they get
into trouble, but not with heavy enough equipment that they can't be (a)
nimble, and (b) likely to get themselves into the trouble because they've got
big guns...
I read a sci-fi book once (I think it was "Tunnel in the Sky" by
Heinlein) where the main character's big sister (???) was a military scout.
When they were sent on *serious* scouting missions, their commander made them
go naked, covered in black makeup, with a knife only. That way, they would do
*everything* to not be seen, not fight, etc. While that is a bit extreme,
there's something to be said for encouraging scouts to not be seen.
On the other hand, as another post pointed out, some of the mech recce
missions may well involve some serious fighting, and in which case they need
to have the numbers and the weapons to make a difference.
I'd go with making them slightly larger than a regular platoon. Maybe
enough for four two-vehicle patrols, with a command vehicle. In
addition,
maybe some bike-mounted scouts (or equivalent - grav bikes, hover
platforms, whatever). Maybe a couple of FAVs or something. If you follow the
tradition of having battalion snipers as part of the battalion recce unit,
they'd be part of the TO&E also, though not equipped with their own armoured
vehicles...
How about this:
NAC Mechanized Battalion Recce Platoon
Platoon Commander's Vehicle (armoured patrol vehicle) 6 x Armoured Patrol
Vehicle (3 teams of two) 6 x Fast Attack Vehicle (3 teams of two)
The Platoon Commander's vehicle has a crew of 4 (Platoon Commander, driver,
gunner, recce technician - for specialized equipment), total 4 troops.
Each armoured patrol vehicle (whatever that ends up being) has a crew of 4
(driver, commander, gunner, tech), for a total of 24 troops. These
vehicles armed with a mid-size gun, and maybe a GMS system. Lots of EW,
decoys, etc. Size 2 or 3. If you need to dismount someone to go look into a
building or a bush or whatever, you take 2 of the crew (commander and tech,
probably, so the gunner and the driver can fight the vehicle if necessary).
The fast attack vehicles have a crew of 2 or 3 (I have a bunch of a cool resin
FAV kit that looks like it should have a crew of 2, but maybe 3 makes more
sense in the recce role), for a total of 18 troops. These vehicles
armed with a smaller gun and maybe a GMS (RFAC/1 in a turret or pintel
mount, and GMS-L???). Smaller vehicle - size 1.
Then attach the battalion snipers (maybe there are 4 to 8), total 8. They get
a vehicle or two to travel in.
Have the patrol vehicle and/or the fav's carry a recce bike on a
rearmounted rack, for dismounted bike operations.
That gives you a total of somewhere between 44 - 54 (ish) troops.
Also remember, in the CF anyway (and I think in British forces??), the Recce
Platoon commander is often a lot more senior than a regular rifle platoon
commander. They have experienced Captains commanding, rather than Lieutenants.
You might consider having two officers in your recce platoon organization, a
Capt. and a Lieutenant, as well as the platoon senior NCO.
If you want more (and dedicated) dismounts, then get rid of the FAV part of
the force and stick an extra crewman into each vehicle. Maybe add two more of
the armoured patrol vehicles, for a total of 4 patrols of 2 plus the platoon
commander's vehicle (total 9 vehicles), and if they have a crew of 5, then you
have a 45 trooper platoon.
They don't need integral support assets, as they're part of a battalion that
has that stuff.
********************************************
From: ~ On Behalf Of John Atkinson
Sent: 08 August 2002 00:57
Subject: Scouts out. . . NAC style
> I've been considering writing up a NAC mechanized
> The Scouts are driving me nuts, though. Everyone
> Brits have some light tanks (6?? I don't recall).
> From TTG's "Ultra Modern Army Lists & Organisations
Commando, Mechanised, Motorised... all infantry formations are listed as you
describe.
Both Armoured Recconaissance and Light Recce (Territorials) are listed as
using four of four, the armour getting four Scorpions to a platoon while the
TA have Fox instead. If you look up Scorpion for an exact comparision, bear in
mind that we kept the older 76mm model and only sold the 90mm overseas.
The Armoured Regiment formation also uses four of four, so I expect it's a
cavalry thing.
All of the above could be badly out of date; all contradictions and
corrections welcome from the list.
-- =================================================
Nathan "GHQ? It's staying matt black anyway" Girdler
Here is the DND description from their web site:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/equip/veh/COYOTE_E.HTML
A nice photo to boot, with the battlefield radar mast deployed.
> On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 12:08 AM, Adrian Johnson wrote:
[snip]
> ********************************************
> --- Michael Brown <mwbrown@sonic.net> wrote:
I know that. I was trying to NOT use technical terms.
. .
OK, we can pretty much say that #6 is a gross misuse of recon assets which
should be grounds for immediate relief.
However, the question remains: What would be the most important of those
tasks? Which would be called upon most often? Which represents a case in which
the inability to perform the task could result in defeat?
I'm kind of leaning towards Adrian's suggestion (7 armored cars and 6 dune
bugges) right now. Any better ideas out there?
Part of any Economy of Force operation is looking like you are something
bigger and badder than you are. Which is why Cavalry units (Division and Corps
level) tend to be equipped like a Heavy Battalion Task force. Battalion level
scouts aren't Cavalry (though some like to think so) and IMO should focus on
the "Eyes and Ears" concepts. A Scout platoon should have the ability to cover
the Battalion's zone with observation (and use Battalion mortars or Artillery
for fire). Of course, you should model your TO&E based around how you expect
to fight.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
> I'm kind of leaning towards Adrian's suggestion (7
If you're using dune bugges, you better pray they don't have air burst
artillary...
> --- "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com> wrote:
If your scouts are hanging around one place long enough after they are spotted
to get artillery to actually impact on their heads, they are wrong, wrong,
wrong.
I believe the phrase you're looking for is, dead dead dead.
> If your scouts are hanging around one place long
> However, the question remains: What would be the most
One thing scouts always do is look around and find the enemy. Once they find
them, what do you want them to do about it? If your answer is "shoot", then
you need to give them something to shoot with. If your answer is "report and
let someone else deal with it" then Hummers (with just enough firepower for
self defense) should suffice.
> If your scouts are hanging around one place long
Assuming they know that they have been spotted...
> At 6:55 PM -0400 8/11/02, Laserlight wrote:
The problem is its really hard to see an infantry force that is hiding and
blocking. You're better off with some armor in the form of a light and fast
armored car for your scouting. They are more surviable than a hummer. It is
possible to make a small fast vehicle. My Dingo is a perfect example. Its tiny
but far more able to take fire than a HMMWV with it's inch of armor to the
front.
I personally think a light/heavy combination works well. Either as
two teams that work together as scout and support, or as route recce and
pursuit forces.
Given the advent of ATGMs, a hypervelocity ATGM launched by the lights would
really help their punch when they needed it. The big issue is not weighing
them down too much. One or two shots is their limit really.