Here's an idea for the Sa'Vasku for the Fleet book. Bio-ships are built
in 20 mass modules. Each module has 4 hull, 2 bio-armor, and 1 PF.
Bio-armor can be repaired as long as the section of hull it is a part of
still has one box left. The cost is 3 points of power per armor circle.
A mass 60 ship would look like this:
OO XXXX P OO XXXX P OO XXXX P
X's represent hull. For record keeping, you would go down the armor until it
was all destroyed and then accross the hull to destroy sections. For beams,
Sa'Vasku still use the shorter 8" range brackets, but can put upto 6 points of
power (for a range of 48") into anyone shot.
Any comments???
What about point value cost? What is the point value of 20 biomass?
[quoted original message omitted]
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[mailto:owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU]On Behalf Of Imre A. Szabo
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 9:11 AM
To: Full Thrust Mailing List
Subject: Sa'Vasku for the Fleet Book
Here's an idea for the Sa'Vasku for the Fleet book. Bio-ships
are built
in 20 mass modules. Each module has 4 hull, 2 bio-armor, and 1
PF.
Bio-armor can be repaired as long as the section of hull it is a
part of still has one box left. The cost is 3 points of power per armor
circle.
A mass 60 ship would look like this:
OO XXXX P
OO XXXX P
OO XXXX P
X's represent hull. For record keeping, you would go down the armor until it
was all destroyed and then accross the hull to destroy sections. For beams,
Sa'Vasku still use the shorter 8" range brackets, but can put upto 6 points of
power (for a range of 48") into anyone shot.
Any comments???
I dislike the random nature of the FT2 power factors. I'd rather have them
generate a fixed amount of power per turn. Running with your module idea,
I'd divide it a bit smaller - into ten Mass increments. Since power
would be fixed, I'd also introduce an organelle or fatty tissue that could act
as a battery or power storage device. Each mass 10 component would cost 35
points, and have 1 Bio Armor (/Exoskeleton), 1 Hull (Hide), 1 Battery
(Fat),
and one PF (Body). Battery/Fat boxes are the same as Hull/Hide boxes for
damage purposes. PF's generate 2 power point per turn. Fat batteries can be
charged and discharged at a rate equal to 1/2 the power factors (round
down) each turn. Charging requires dedicated power points at a 1:1 rate.
A PF can repair a Fat body in its row (1/6), a Fat body can repair hide
(2/6) , and hide can repair Bio Armor (3/6). (This ability might require
adding a few points to the module cost. - call it 40 points).
I like the Sa'Vasku beam modification.
Movement requires 1 power point per thrust for each 30 mass of SV ship, round
up.
So, a mass 60 mass example would look like:
O XB P(2) O XB P(2) O XB P(2) O XB P(2) O XB P(2) O XB P(2)
SV ships can start scenarios with full or depleted fat bodies for balance. SV
can turn like KV.
A possibly more robust design (esp with your armor-repair ability)
wouldbe to go for 20 mass or 30 mass modules with commensurate larger PF's the
might denote different subspecies of SV. They delay power loss, can repair
armor, but lose larger chunks of power when hit badly.
Alternate Mass 60 SV (very close to your original)
OO XBXB P(4) OO XBXB P(4) OO XBXB P(4)
or
OOO XBXBXB P(6) OOO XBXBXB P(6)
My 2 quatloos.
> A PF can repair a Fat body in its row (1/6), a Fat body can repair hide
I like this concept
> Movement requires 1 power point per thrust for each 30 mass of SV ship,
Works for me.
> O XB P(2)
For someone coming in on this a little late - what do these mean?
How about a simpler system use the fat as armor. Bioenergy reserves are stored
externaly and oblate if hit by fire. Ships roll at start of game how much fat
thay carry max is one per one with hull boxes. Ships produces a steady state 3
points of power for power factor.
Andy
Schoon:
> O XB P(2)
> For someone coming in on this a little late - what do these mean?
That's an SV damage row for a 10 mass module. O = BioArmor X = Hide B = Fat
P(2) = Power factor (2 points). The number was to contrast it to the 4 and 6
point versions later in the post.
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 01:33:01 -0400
From: "ANDREW R APTER" <APTER@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: Sa'Vasku for the Fleet Book
How about a simpler system use the fat as armor. Bioenergy reserves are stored
externaly and oblate if hit by fire.
That would be different than BioArmor, then? A damage row like this might look
like
OB X P (O=Armor, F=Fat, H=hide, P=Power factor)
or did you want the Fat bodies external even to armor?
BO X P
I guess I don't really like that because if I were growing a ship, I
wouldtry to protect the energy production/reserve as much as possible.
I think the addition of a Fat element is not over complex, expecially since
theSV have so few 'internal systems' to deal with in comparison to Human
ships.
Ships roll at start of game how much fat thay carry max is one per one with
hull boxes. Ships produces a steady state 3 points of power for power factor.
Are you also saying the Fat bodies can't be repaired? If so, that would make
the PF 3 more logical. However, PF 3 plus random Fat power is a greater
power total than PF2 + 1 Fat power. This may be a fine-tuning balance
issue resolvable by play testing.
> Subject: RE: Sa'Vasku for the Fleet Book
FFFFF XXXXX P ( F=Fatty armor, X=body, P=Power factor) if had a full load of
fat
> Ships roll at start of game how much fat thay carry max is one per
Fat bodies would require two units of power to create and yeald one unit of
power when consumed The roll would be one die 6 for two rows of fat (rounded
upward). Andy
Fat just seems too terrestial a concept
my SV are more bio-mech *alien*
Not to mention that sounds a little odd for something soft and flabby as we
know it to protect against high power weapons. I would think an armored
exoskeleton like a turtle shell would be more likely for a warship.
Mike
might be flabby filled with an ablative gel with a high vaporization point?
> -----Original Message-----
Or maybe it could just sense incoming fire and shape itself into a donut
totally avoiding the attack. They could even squeeze the gel out at incoming
fire to work as a shield. Now there's something to do with those
old stale donuts - new minis! ;-)
Mike
Michael Miserendino Senior Software Engineer Lincoln Re mtmiserendino@lnc.com
> owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU at internet 10/14 12:43 PM >>>
might be flabby filled with an ablative gel with a high vaporization point?
> -----Original Message-----
From: "Tim Jones" <Tim.Jones@Smallworld.co.uk>
Fat just seems too terrestial a concept
my SV are more bio-mech *alien*
I partially agree. "Fat" is the terrestriocentric term I'm using for
biological energy storage. I don't have enough knowledge to create the
proper PBB (Psedo-Biological B..) terminology. A better word would be...
better. :-). I haven't forgotten Tom Anderson's 'Molecular Biology of
the Sa'Vasku'. I like that template alot. He had the SV as slow growing and
long
lived - something that might not work well in the high attrition
GZGverse
unless there was a large population, or growth/reproduction rate could
be
increased at a time of species-wide stress. Depending on exactly _where_
the
SV are in the GZG-verse it could be that they are just that slow and
just that populous, and we've just hit the edge of their space. Best not to
piss them off (but don't tell that to the KV).
From: Andrew Apter <andya@speechsolutions.com>
> How about a simpler system use the fat as armor.
No the fat is the only armor A full damage row would look like this: FFFFF
XXXXX P ( F=Fatty armor, X=body, P=Power factor) if had a full load of fat
Is that going back to Imre's original 20 mass module. (~70-80 points) or
larger? The original had 2 armor, 4 body, one PF(d6) per 20 mass. Also have to
be careful about move cost. Your modules would have to burn fat if they wanted
to go better than thrust 3, or better than thrust 2 and do anything else.
Fat bodies would require two units of power to create and yeald one unit of
power when consumed
There's precious little energy to grow more fat in most scenario time scales.
The roll would be one die 6 for two rows of fat (rounded upward).
I'm not sure what roll you're referring to here.
It looks like we might have two different genetic trees growing here. You like
larger modules with integrated energy storage and armor. I like the smaller
modules with seperate and layered armor, structure, storage, and power
elements. I think my system is somewhat more 'organic' (esp if you
include the repair/regrowth system)., though they are poth probably
workable.
The different types of structure for the Sa'Vasku is getting a bit complex for
how I envision them. I must have deleted Imre's original post but here are
some quick and dirty thoughts of my own.
No armor, just more damage boxes. 15 mass blocks, each giving a damage track
row of 5 boxes [00000]. Instead 4 rows of damage moving horizontal, the SV
damage track is vertical with rows on top of each other. A mass 90 SV would be
indicated as:
00000
00000
00000
00000
00000
00000
No random power, each row with at least one undamaged box gives the ship
2?
power points per turn and 1 storage point. Power can be used for: *Thrust (1
point per thrust for each 2 rows)
*Beams (as EFSB Heavy Beams - each point of power used is a die rolled,
-1
per full 6" of range, fire cons equal to # of rows, no emitter system needed)
*Point Defense (1 point of power, 6" range, roll a d6 and result is # of
fighters lost) *Screens (4 points per level) *FTL (1 point per original # or
rows) *Regenerate (2 points per box repaired) etc
The power costs are best guess and not tested. This would be a simple version
so the energy allocation would be minimal but still make them tough and
flexible.
Fat in a bioship would be a tightly held field or matter energized to a high
level (a kelate energized to very high quatum level) it would function like
reactive armor and have negligable real mass. You might call it a bioenergy
field. FFFFF XXXXX P ( F=Fatty armor, X=body, P=Power factor) with or without
a full load of fat is mass 10 each X being mass 2. And a total of 25 points
Andy
[quoted original message omitted]
> Not to mention that sounds a little odd for something soft and
I guess the phalons will have very powerful armor, it can't be long till th
real fleet book comes out can it, so effort designing a system now is probably
wasted, though interesting.
> It can't
Well, even if the FB Sa'vasku don't or can't look like this, this is still a
nice discussion for other bio-tech races.
Guys,
I think you misunderstand what I suggested. The Sa'Vasku work just like they
do in More Thrust (Power Factors, Capaciters, etc.). What I suggested
was the addition of Bio-Armor to make them a little different. It is
expensive in power to repair so they probably won't do it all the time, and
each row of hull destroyed prevents the Bio-Armor on that section from
being repaired. The large increase in mass to power was done to bring them
more in line with the Fleet Book. I chose the Sa'Vasku hull at 20% of mass and
Bio-Armor at 10% of mass. This was done to make it harder to destroy
the intial Power Factor, but once that is done, their ships come appart rather
quickly. This also make armor piercing damage very effective.
From: "Dean Gundberg" <dean.gundberg@noridian.com>
> The different types of structure for the Sa'Vasku is getting a bit
Dean, I think your simple system is superior. Though I have tweaks (who
doesn't?).
> No armor, just more damage boxes. 15 mass blocks, each giving a
00000
00000
00000
00000
00000
00000
I'd probably go for rows of 6, but that's a playtest tweak.
> No random power, each row with at least one undamaged box gives the
I'd say 3 points because:
> Power can be used for:
With 2 power points/row, an SV could never go faster than 4 thrust w/o
burningstored energy, and would have to be slower than thrust 4 if they wanted
to do anything else without using stored energy. I also still favor Kra'Vak
movement abilities for SV
> *Beams (as EFSB Heavy Beams - each point of power used is a die
In keeping with the FT2 SV flavor, I'd make 8" range bands, -1 per
_partial_
8" of range.
> *Point Defense (1 point of power, 6" range, roll a d6 and result is #
At 3 power points/row, the 90 mass example could have 1 screen level,
travel at 4 thurst, and fire 2 dice of beams without using stored energy, 2
screens, 4 thrust, and 4 dice using all stored energy (once). Compare this to
a Manchuria's output, I think that's quite reasonable.
> *FTL (1 point per original # or rows)
I'd say regenerate can be free if boxes remain in a given row. One box can be
repaired if the die roll is equal to or less than the number of boxes in the
row. Boxes can otherwise be regenerated for 3 points.
Recharge storage 1:1.
> The power costs are best guess and not tested. This would be a simple
I like it. Cost should be onthe order of 45-50 points/15 mass module
From: "ANDREW R APTER" <APTER@prodigy.net>
> Fat in a bioship would be a tightly held field or matter energized to
This can work, too, with power factors of 2, thrust cost 1 per 30 mass. I'm
still laening toward Dean's simpler way, though.
> The different types of structure for the Sa'Vasku is getting a bit
I (as usual) agree that simple is better.
> No armor, just more damage boxes. 15 mass blocks, each giving a damage
Why not 20 MASS blocks. This would partially mirror the human ship crewing
concept, and produce a few fewer damage lines. In fact, that way they would
have one repair/DC/growth for each row of damage not knocked out !!
> No random power, each row with at least one undamaged box gives the
How about partial random power; an assurred amount plus a random factor?
> *Thrust (1 point per thrust for each 2 rows)
With MASS 20 rows, I'd make it one per.
> *Beams (as EFSB Heavy Beams - each point of power used is a die rolled,
I like it.
> *Point Defense (1 point of power, 6" range, roll a d6 and result is #
Subject to the same PDS restrictions as humans, yes (?)
> *Screens (4 points per level)
This sounds low.
> *FTL (1 point per original # or rows)
This also sounds low.
> *Regenerate (2 points per box repaired)
Ditto here.
I like the simplicity. I like where this is going.
With all this discussion of Sa'Vasku ships, I'm vey tempted to order a few.
Which would be ost appropriate and to what extent would conversions be
necessary to use the as Babylon 5 Shadow ships (the big ones) and does anyone
currently use them as such? Also, any idea when AoG is gong to do the Shadows?
Thanks,
Perry
In a message dated 99-10-15 00:53:19 EDT, you write:
<<
Fat in a bioship would be a tightly held field or matter energized to a high
level (a kelate energized to very high quatum level) it would function like
reactive armor and have negligable real mass. You might call it a bioenergy
field. FFFFF XXXXX P ( F=Fatty armor, X=body, P=Power factor) with or without
a full load of fat is mass 10 each X being mass 2. And a total of
25 points
Andy >>
I've found the best thing to use is the larger cruiser Sa'Vasku (The ones
without the extra domes & things). Simply glue 2 together with a spacer & bend
the spines using pliers, then paint. Fast & dirty & comes up well. (I've used
these as trophy's for the last 2 years.)
'Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
> -----Original Message-----
> necessary to use the as Babylon 5 Shadow ships (the big ones) and does
G'day Perry,
> With all this discussion of Sa'Vasku ships, I'm vey tempted to order a
I've been very tempted, but I never have enough cash to keep up with my ideas
;) Michael (who lurks on the list) is thinking about making the
shadow-omega
using Savasku legs and an AOG figure... <speak up Michael we can't hear you;)>
> Also, any idea when AoG is gong to do the Shadows?
Well there page says "Shadow Wars: Ships are being redesigned now and will
undergo a final round of internal playtesting during the months of September
and October. Expect to see this product, and the miniatures to go with it, in
January!" if that's any help.
Have fun
Beth
> Perry writes:
> necessary to use the as Babylon 5 Shadow ships (the big ones) and does
I have a few times in the past. All my Sa'Vasku are painted up a metallic
black.
> Beth writes:
Check out:
http://people.canoe.ca/jhan/ft/gzgecc/gzgecc2/home.html
click on the 'Reports and Gallery' link, then go down the page to 'Saturday
Afternoon, February 27th, 1999'. In there you'll
find pics of the minis contest we held at GZG-ECC II earlier
this year. One of the pics is a nicely done Shadow Omega (as to who
constructed this terror I canNOT remember now!:()
Mk
Well, AOG has Shadow rules in development, but I don't know about models.
To convert Sa'vasku, I'd start with one or two fo the medium or light
cruisers.
> click on the 'Reports and Gallery' link, then go down the page
Don't you just *love* frames NOT.
the piccies here - directly
http://people.canoe.ca/jhan/ft/gzgecc/gzgecc2/images/SatAft/ECC2_MiniFT2
.jpg
Looks like a wire and expoxy putty job to me.
> Sorry 'bout that; my browser wouldn't give me the direct URL. :-/
Its not your fault, is a side effect that frames screw up net navigation, the
latest generation browsers are a bit better.
This is a good coverage of the issues and why my sites won't use them
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html
> click on the 'Reports and Gallery' link, then go down the page
Sorry 'bout that; my browser wouldn't give me the direct URL. :-/
Mk
> Tim Jones wrote:
> I guess the phalons will have very powerful armor, it can't
<snort> <cough> erm... well, no - not compared to how long it took
between the first mention of FB1 and its publishing ;-)
> so effort
Wasted? I doubt it - at best it'll provide Jon with input, at worst
it'll point out which mechanics not to use <g>
Best wishes,
> <snort> <cough> erm... well, no - not compared to how long it took
The FB2 schedule is a little worrying as it was originally for April 99 then
Autumn 99 and now at the end of October no sign of it or mention which means
it's probably in a schedule hole.
> Wasted? I doubt it - at best it'll provide Jon with input, at worst
I'd naively assumed as the FB2 was due out September that the SV rules were
written months ago and now fully play tested.