Hello All: In the spirit of Battlefleet Gothic, I am working on my own set of
WH40K/FT 2.5 rules. So far, I've got just about everything worked out,
except ramming. I want to find a way to: A. Make ramming easier. B. Make
ramming potentially less disastrous for the rammer. Any ideas?
BTW, I've got my current draft of these BFG/FT rules up on my
site. I haven't placed a normal link on the UFTWWWP yet. But the URL for the
rules are:
http://www.uwm.edu/~cthulhu/FT/Gothrust.htm
Please, let me know what you think. If you see a bunch of funny letters in the
contents box, don't worry. I'm using a WH40K symbol font until I can get a
decent graphics editor to make proper buttons. I'm
especially interested in what you think of the Eldar rules (holo-screens
and solar sales).
> "Mark A. Siefert" wrote:
> I'm
^^^^^
Whoops! That's what e-mail at 1 a.m. will do to you. I, of
course
mean S-A-I-L-S as in the fabric-things used to propel ships.
> "Mark A. Siefert" wrote:
> I'm
^^^^^
Whoops! That's what e-mail at 1 a.m. will do to you. I, of
course,
mean S-A-I-L-S as in the fabric-things used to propel ships.
> Hello All:
I like the Holofield--simplicity is a good thing. Shouldn't the point
cost be less, though? It's not as efficent or useful as a normal Screen
2.
The sail rules could be interesting...I can see putting a "sun" in the
center of the board (it wouldn't have to be absurdly large--planets that
I have seen on FT boards haven't been at all to scale either) with the wind
radiating out from the sun. It would be a bit complex, but it would make for
an interesting game.
Have you considered using MT missiles for torps? And perhaps using the EFSB
"Heavy Beam Weapon" for the Lances? I don't know about the mechanics, but the
HBW certainly fits my idea of an energy lance.
As for ramming, how about this: During the fire phase, a ship may announce an
attempt to ram an opponent. The target ship must be within the attacker's
front arc, and be no more than [The Attacker's Thrust rating] inches away.
When the ram attempt is announced, each player must roll 1d6 for each thrust
point that their ship has.
If the attacker rolls higher, the ram is successful--on the next
movement phase, move the target ship as normal and then move the attacker into
contact with it in lieu of a normal move.
If the defender wins, movement orderw will be written and executed as as
normal.
I'm not sure how to make it less lethal to the rammer--half damage if
the ship has a prow ram, perhaps? I don't have the rules in front of me, and
I'm not sure how they work as is.
The noble John Crimmins sez:
***
The sail rules could be interesting...I can see putting a "sun" in the
center of the board (it wouldn't have to be absurdly large--planets that
I have seen on FT boards haven't been at all to scale either) with the wind
radiating out from the sun. It would be a bit complex, but it would make for
an interesting game.
***
The original Spacefleet used varying 'winds'; I know the solar wind varies as
to strength, but have trouble imagining varying direction unless eddies
introduced by large (planetary) bodies. Over the battle field, smaller than a
system, or perhaps outside a system, the wind was one direction across the
board. From Napoleon sail games, I like varying wind, but suggest they should
only vary slightly from a predominate direction (towards the
sun).
I hope we can not bring up the discussion about 'how do you tack in a solar
wind?'. *shudder*
***
I'm not sure how to make it less lethal to the rammer--half damage if
the ship has a prow ram, perhaps? I don't have the rules in front of me, and
I'm not sure how they work as is.
***
I'd see the prow as a form of directional armor; perhaps renewable between
turns. The amount of damage the prow can absorb would vary with the size of
ship. It could even be defined as by size for a design system.
Again, though, let's not talk about the difficulties imagining ships actually
tiny dots on our tabletops, lumbering, trying to get close enough to do a ram.
Someone complained about Star Trek as science fiction, and I knew just what
they meant. However, ST is lazy 'hard sci-fi' (sic), with an utopian
agenda; GW is fantasy sci-fi.
As for the background, especially the older stuff, of course you love it.
They DID steal from the best. ;->=
The_Beast
[Snippity-Snap]
> The original Spacefleet used varying 'winds'; I know the solar wind
No, I can't see the Solar Wind changing direction either. If it does, you've
probably got more important things than a battle to worry about ("Hey! Who
turned out the sun?") You might want to give the Eldar, whose ships are
supposed to be nice and fast, the option of choosing what direction they enter
from after the direction of the wind has been determined. Or you might
not...it'd be moot in most campaigns, anyway.
Letting the intensity vary from turn to turn might be cool, though--it
would never drop below one, or change by more than one or two points in a
turn. Unless the star just went nova; and again, you've got bigger problems in
that case.
> I hope we can not bring up the discussion about 'how do you tack in a
Not me. I'm a librarian, not a physicist.
> ***
Renewable seems iffy, unless we are talking about some kind of force screen.
Who would they have repairing it, anyway? The Squats did all of that work, and
no one has seen them in years! Anyway, you could go
with a percentage system--small rams absorb 25% of the damage, medium
rams absorb 33%, and heavy ones absorb 50%. Nasty, but I would think that
ships big enough to carry the heavy ram wouldn't be fast enough to hit much of
anything.
> Again, though, let's not talk about the difficulties imagining ships
Piffle. Look at the ranges at which combat took place in B5! Not many people
complained about *that*! Ramming may be a bit silly, but the "Fun Factor"
outweighs that, in my opinion.
> Someone complained about Star Trek as science fiction, and I knew just
I'd just like some consistency from ST.That, and an absence of joysticks on
the bridge. If it were up to me, I'd build a ship that was
one big holodeck. Need more engineers? Coming right up, sir. Need security on
Deck 5? Materialize a couple dozen Klingons to deal with it. How can we deal
with this terrible plague? Clear out Cargo Bay Four and load it up with
holographic doctors!
> As for the background, especially the older stuff, of course you love
I have always liked the GW background. Heavy on the atmosphere, light on the
logic, but it leaves a lot of room for creativity. Or, at least,
it did. Remember the Jokaero? Remember the days of the deodorant stick
APC? That was a golden age...simultaneously encouraging gamers to scratchbuild
AND use deodorant! They should try something similar today. Soon.
It helped that they tended to get VERY good writers when they started
producing fiction. Ian Watson is a first class author, as is Kim Stanley
Newman (who wrote under the name of Jack Yeovil).
*sigh* I miss those days. And the box of 30 Imperial Guard for $30.00.
> On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, John C wrote:
> It helped that they tended to get VERY good writers when they started
ummm... i don't know of a kim stanley newman. i know of a kim newman, and i
know of a kim stanley robinson (of 'coloured mars' infamy). i think kim newman
wrote for gw.
Tom
> From owner-gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 28 12:45:54 1999
> producing fiction. Ian Watson is a first class author, as is Kim
Quite right! I get confused sometimes. I have far too many authors floating
around in my head these days. Kim Newman is the man I meant, the author of
"Anno Dracula" and "The Bloody Red Baron" (which would make one heck of a
scenario for a WWI game...but I digress). In fact, Newman uses one of the
characters from his GW days, Genevive, in his "Dracula" books. Anyway, he's a
very good writer.
On Thursday, 28 January 1999 13:54, John C [SMTP:john1x@hotmail.com] wrote:
> [Snippity-Snap]
> you've probably got more important things than a battle to worry about
> ("Hey! Who turned out the sun?")
Yep. Solar wind goes from the star outward.
> Letting the intensity vary from turn to turn might be cool, though--it
> would never drop below one, or change by more than one or two points
Aha! Here we apply a handwave and decide that the sails don't work because of
solar wind, but because of currents and eddies in warp space. It is 40K
background that warp space is very chaotic. Assume that the sails grab ahold
of warp space 'winds' and translate that to normal space movement.
Boom - variable speed and direction each turn.
> >I hope we can not bring up the discussion about 'how do you tack in a
> solar
You can, it's just very time consuming. Using the solar wind to propel
anything with any useful mass is very, very difficult. There just isn't that
much thrust.
> >Again, though, let's not talk about the difficulties imagining ships
True. Any 'real' space combat (whatever that may turn out to be) will take
place at much greater than visual range. However, it is fun to actually see
the enemy (as in B5) and B5 ships moved *mostly* as they should.
> I have always liked the GW background. Heavy on the atmosphere, light
> on the logic, but it leaves a lot of room for creativity. Or, at
I still am a fan and regular player of the 40K Rogue Trader rules. I still
use deodorant regularly. :-)
> *sigh* I miss those days. And the box of 30 Imperial Guard for
<OLDCODGERMODE>
Ahhh, ya young whipper-snapper *cough*wheeze*. why, when *I* was a kid,
GW was nothing but a Traveller licencee. *wheeze*hack*
</OLDCODGERMODE>
vargr1 UPP-8D9B85
---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.
> Mark wrote:
> >Hello All:
B.
> >Make ramming potentially less disastrous for the rammer. Any ideas?
> >I'm
Holofields - well. If you're using Cinematic movement (which I think you
should), I'd up the speed requirements considerably since not even my
Thrust-4 ships usually fly as slow as speed 12 - but I know I like
flying
fast :-/ The Holofield would simply be a Level-2 screen in my games.
If you want to mirror the BFG holofields they should be very effective against
lances and torpedoes but not that impressive against the normal weapons; with
pulse torps as lances you get exactly the opposite effect. Not sure what to do
about it, though Aaron have some ideas that could work.
The sailing rules look fine, but I'd drop the changing wind direction. The
solar wind generally comes from the nearest star, and somehow I doubt if it
changes its location very fast (unless the battle is fought in the
vicinity of a double star, perhaps? :-) ) It can be quite a challenge to
maneuver a sailing craft on the table anyway; random wind directions make it
rather difficult for the Eldar player to plan ahead. At least that's
what I remember from my attempts some years back :-/
Later,
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Holofields - well. If you're using Cinematic movement (which I think
Yup, I'm using cinematic. It's better for first time players which is what
these rules are aimed at.
As for the velocity/screen level, I was simply throwing out some
logical numbers. How about increments of 10" instead?
> If you want to mirror the BFG holofields they should be very effective
I'm re-thinking the lances as well as weapons batteries. I'm
thinking of using John Crimmins idea of using the HBW instead of pluse torps.
Since JT has finalized any Mass/Pts cost of HBWs yet, I was trying to
stay as close to the fleet book as possible.
As for the batteries, how about this idea for conversion.
BFG Battery range determines FT battery class. (e.g. 30 cm = class 2 batt, 45
cm = class 3). Every 2 points of BFG firepower equals one FT battery. So a a
Chaos ship's port battery with a range of 60 and a firepower of 4 would be
represented by two class 4 batteries.
> The sailing rules look fine, but I'd drop the changing wind direction.
I don't know where anyone got the idea that you roll for wind direction each
turn. You roll once at the begining of the game, that's it.
> John C wrote:
> I like the Holofield--simplicity is a good thing. Shouldn't the point
OK, that makes sense. How about the points cost is 2x Mass instead of 3x Mass?
> Have you considered using MT missiles for torps? And perhaps using
Well, In BFG, torps fire in salvos. So the SBM are the safest bet.
I'm going to have to thin about the lance rules althogether. Although Chaos
lances have the same amount of firepower and Imp lances, Chaos lances have a
longer range.
> I'm not sure how to make it less lethal to the rammer--half damage if
I'm going to be using the FB construction rules for this, so maybe we can do
this. When determining damage, the attacker and defender modify their damage
rolls depending on the hull strengths of their repective ships.
Hull: Modifer:
--- -------
Fragile -2
Weak -1
Average no modifer
Strong +1
Super +2
Let's say an Imperial cruiser with 20 points and a strong hull and 20 DP
remaining rams an Eldar ship with a weak hull and 10 DP remaining. The
Imperial players roll a 3 and gets to add 1 for his strong hull. The Eldar
player on the other hand ends up with a 2, but it's knocked down to a 1 due to
his weak hull. The result is that the Eldar player
takes 60 points of damge and the Imperial takes 10 DP. (OK Elf-boy...
Smack! Who's yo daddy! SMACK! WHO'S YO DADDY!!!)
> "Mark A. Siefert" wrote:
> Let's say an Imperial cruiser with 20 points and a strong hull
Oops... Forgot to mention. If one ship or the other end up with a 0 or a
negitive number, the other ship lucks out and takes NO damage!
Imperial Captain: "Destroy the aliens! All praise the
Emprero...'
["Plink!"]
Imp Cpt.: "'Plink???' Helmsman, what was that?"
Helsman: "I'm not sure my Liege. Either we rammed something or something
rammed us."
Imp. Cpt: "Oh... where was I? Oh yeah... Burn the heretic! Maim the
mutant..."
> On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mark A. Siefert wrote:
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
what about basing the effectiveness on the thrust applied that turn, rather
than the velocity? you can't keep burning at thrust six all the time. can you?
under cinematic, i mean.
Tom
Thomas Anderson wrote in reply to Mark:
> > > Holofields - well. If you're using Cinematic movement (which I
I'd go for 12 or even 15mu increments, but then my slowest Eldar units
are Thrust-6 (and the fastest are... much faster <g>) and I have plenty
of maneuvering space <shrug>
> what about basing the effectiveness on the thrust applied that turn,
No problem at all! If you don't count thrust used for turning it might get
tricky, but all changing of velocity should help the holofields IMO
:-/
Later,
> Mark wrote:
> > Have you considered using MT missiles for torps? And perhaps using
BFG torps behave very differently from either MT missiles or SMs (...SBM
is a long-range *Starfire* weapon, though - you mean SML, don't you?
:-).
In BFG, torps...
* Travel in a straight line at approx. 2-3 times the speed of the
slowest ships * Have infinite range * Inflict relatively little damage when
they hit.
The first point sounds similar to MT missiles, but the other two aren't like
any FT weapon. I suspect you'll have to invent things from scratch here (or
snatch the BFG mechanics!)
All in all, I'm a bit confused about adapting FT to emulate a game which
hasn't been published yet. It seems to me that it'd be tricky to know what you
aim for... Oh well <shrug>
Later,
***
All in all, I'm a bit confused about adapting FT to emulate a game which
hasn't been published yet. It seems to me that it'd be tricky to know what you
aim for... Oh well <shrug>
***
No argument to you, though I can't speak for Mark or John or whomever else has
been feeding ideas. Still, a working model of a working model has been
fun, and no one's gotten hurt yet. ;->=
'sides, if folks would have been trying to design games based on the original
descriptions of BFG, back when it was scaled back to SpaceFleet, we may have
had something VERY impressive to play all these years...
The_Beast
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
Do BFG torps have unlimited ammo? Otherwise, you could treat them as unarmed
fighters or shuttles that move in a straight line, and then use ramming
damage.
(Not an elegant solution, I admit, but it would simulate the effect.)
Jonathan Jarrard (who didn't read Aaron's report carefully enough ;-)
wrote:
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
Depends on your dice, but basically yes. Reloading torpedoes is one of the
"special actions" which require a successful "leadership" roll, so if you roll
well you can launch torpedoes every turn.
Regards,
> At 08:24 PM 2/1/99 +0100, Oerjan wrote:
<grin>
> wrote:
Kinda-sorta... that's only if you don't want to do any other special
orders
(1/turn max), and if you roll doubles on the Ld test you're out. (I
*thought* I mentioned that... but I'm not going to look for it. ^_^; )
So it's not infinite, though it could be for the duration of the game. Or you
might just get one salvo. Kinda hard to duplicate in Full Thrust... which, no
offense to Mark Siefert, is why I'm not trying to. (Good luck, though,
and when I find time I'll see if I have suggestions. ^_^; ) It looks
like GW's put together at least a decent game, with their unique background
and "physics", so I *will* do conversions for the minis to FT but won't try to
fit them to BFG at the same time (i.e., replicating lances).
Later,