Robots and Drones in SG2.

6 posts ยท Feb 29 2000 to Mar 1 2000

From: Los <los@c...>

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:39:39 -0500

Subject: Robots and Drones in SG2.

First off In this post I'm not laying down a flag to say this is how it is,
nor did I put too much thought into these stats. I just want to steer the
discussion towards something more interesting productive instead of the
inevitable," your future is stupid, mine is better" attitude that's sort of
dying to come out in the tone of some of these posts...

> sportyspam@harm.dhs.org wrote:

> > We may at some point have psuedo-intelligent tanks for doing things
I'm
> sure that won't be a problem. ;)

Here's a good idea, instead of carrying on about how there will only be robot
combat in the future or whatnot, (this is only going to lead to more
bullshit/animosity
eventually) lets see some examples of how to make robot/drone combat
work in SG2 and how to make it interesting.

So in other words, put aside, for now whether AI will completely replace
humans in the future. And lets assume it does.

One thing I was thinking about mechanics. Do we need to just eliminate the
entire
confidence level, confidence check/morale rules from SG2?  Do we need to
rename them something else and modify them instead? Can the SG2 rules as
written handle a radically different type of combat in both scale, and
interaction?

First some terminology. When we say drones, are we talking equivalent of
infantry or if you will smaller forces that can get into heavy terrain, woods,
cities, caves, ships? I know there was some postulation of tanks tearing
around at 100 kph in woods, but even if capable, it's hard to believe that
wars in the future won't be subject to many of the same political constraints
that they are now. (Or else we would just gas or neutron the population of any
area we wanted to subdue.)

I guess quality/activation is pretty much a function of software and
programming. It would be inefficient to allow drones to learn on an individual
level without ensuring that the experience or learning is not constantly
updated throughout your force so every drone remains at the highest possible
level. This also helps (theoretically) reduce variability of performance to
things that are truly variable, that is, what the enemy is doing. While I
guess the activation rules would stand, there really wouldn't be any need for
different individual activation markers within a given class of drone or
vehicle. For instance, all Mk1 ground combat drones (Infantry Class) would
most likely have the same chits on the table (actually there would really be
no need for chits) unless there was an upgrade difference between the two.
Meaning they would all be, if you will, Blue 2. Something like this:

Name/Quality-Activation/ Weapons/Sensors/armor/movement/Size/cost/misc
MKI/Blue-2/RFAC-GL/D10/D8/10"/NA-mansized/$50K/CC shift up one quality
die
MKIA/Orange-2/RFAC-GL, GMS-L/D10/D10/10"/size 1/$80K
MKII./Orange-1/HEL-2/RFAC/D12/D12/12"/size 2/$250K/ECM 2 chits
MKIII/Red-1/HAMR/D12//D8/10"/NA man sized/$115K/stealth

Note the movement rates are low only because we only have so much table to
game on, either the scale has to be upped to reflect such high speeds or
something else has to be done. It also depends on the type of propulsion
system.

SO genning up stats shouldn't be too hard based on what role you want each
drone to fill. The next question though is leadership and activation. Any
modifications needed to spur on Drones to further action based on the
situation? I think so. Also the ECM game probably needs more attention too.
For instance I can see several types of comms between drones, one could be
laser, so if a drone can see a leader drone, has LOS to it, no need to make a
comms check DR.Probably be more heavy ECM activity going on as both sides try
to disrupt comms with the other. That process can already get fairly tedious
in high comms usage games. Maybe some revamping is needed. Perhaps more
vulnerability for map based disruption attempts since it is a very more
intrusive process than making the comm in the first place..

You could also have loss of comms instructions so that particularly lower
level or costed drones can have specific instruction based on loss of signal
or instruction for higher. These failure instructions could then be carried
out until comms are restored. The more expensive a drone the better able it
will be to judge the situation for itself. Of course all this presupposes
various degrees of sophistication in higher thought processes.

Anyway gotta get back to work. Just thinking about how to game this and make
it half way interesting.

From: Jeremey Claridge <jeremy.claridge@k...>

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:48:42 +0000 ()

Subject: Re: Robots and Drones in SG2.

> On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:39:39 -0500 Los <los@cris.com> wrote:

> First off In this post I'm not laying down a flag to say this is how

ok not sure about SG2 (Since I don't play it) But here are my house rules that
I'm currently working on for DS2. No they haven't been play tested to death
yet! And no one go nicking my ideas, publishing it and making millions:)
-----------------------
Drone units are programmed with a set of orders before the start of the
battle. They will follow these orders to the letter until destroyed. Drone
units cannot be made up of mixed vehicle types or be placed with non drone
units. Before battle the player must give each drone unit strict battle
orders.

These tell it what to do in specific circumstances. The circumstances are:
Enemy Visible and in close range Enemy Visible and in medium range Enemy
Visible and in long range Enemy Visible but out of range Enemy Not Visible
Other

Players may write any order down for they drone units but each order must only
contain 1overall instruction.

Example of Drone unit orders:
Enemy Visible and in close range - Fire at nearest enemy unit.
Enemy Visible and in medium range - Fire at nearest enemy unit.
Enemy Visible and in long range - Move towards nearest enemy unit.
Enemy Visible but out of range - Move towards nearest enemy unit.
Enemy Not Visible - Move towards nearest objective.
Other - Move towards nearest objective.

The drone unit is allowed to use the best weapon for the target attacked. E.g.
APSW against infantry.

Any drone unit immobilised or unable to stay in unit cohesion is considered
destroyed and becomes inactive for the rest of the game. This is due to the
communications link between vehicles.

From: Denny Graver <den_den_den@t...>

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:56:46 -0000

Subject: Re: Robots and Drones in SG2.

> You could also have loss of comms instructions so that particularly

Or a more sophisticated drone leader;=]

From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@m...>

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:47:04 +1000

Subject: Re: Robots and Drones in SG2.

G'day guys,

> Drone units are programmed with a set of orders before the start of the

I do something similar for my Daleks. Each Dalek command is given an objective
it must take. To change objectives I must pass an SG style communication roll,
but with pretty stiff modifies if I haven't taken many casulaties trying to
get the objective yet. You may want to consider something similar (as I assume
humans are still running the show from somewhere) then again maybe your
circumstances do that already.

> One that I was thinking of adding was the "Self Preservation Order"

While individual Dalek commands don't have this I do have something similar in
that if teh Emperor Dalek is killed then every unit on the table must spend
its next activation taking a confidence test. If they fail they withdraw to
their baseline.

Cheers

Beth

From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@m...>

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:49:36 +1000

Subject: Re: Robots and Drones in SG2.

G'day Los,

> Note the movement rates are low only because we only have so much table

While I know there's not set scale for any of the GZG games you could say that
the turn when drones are on the board is half (or something) of that
when drones aren't. So 'non-drone' units can only move half speed or
activate every other turn or something (probably too much book-keeping
though I guess) when drones are on the board.

Just a thought

Beth

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:29:46 -0500

Subject: Re: Robots and Drones in SG2.

> So in other words, put aside, for now whether AI will

Alarishi army is working on this for "outside" combat, in which terrain is
mostly elevation change (no vegetation and usually no air). "Inside" combat is
pretty much going to demand humans.

> One thing I was thinking about mechanics. Do we need to just

Unless you have a unit which is badly programmed or intended as a kamikaze,
I'd think combat robots would have some
self-preservation programmed in.  If so, you should be able to
treat them similarly to humans, with modifiers.