A quick hypothetical question to all out there in list-land -
especially those of you who like Mecha-style units with your ground
forces....
When you get a kit of a gaming mecha (something for use on the table,
as opposed to a Gundam-type plastic kit for display), how important
is "poseability" to you? By that I mean the flexibility to choose exactly how
you pose your particular model when you build it, as opposed to having to
assemble it in one fixed pose determined by the manufacturer.
If you were faced with a white-metal Mecha kit with LOTS of parts -
let's say anything up to 40 separate components - which effectively
had almost every joint poseable, would you panic and never build it? Would you
prefer to see it made up in a much smaller number of
solid-cast subassemblies that were much quicker to glue together, but
would result in a model that looked just like the next guy's one?
Obviously most of you will by now have guessed that there is something in the
GZG pipeline, and if I get a good number of responses to this it may well
influence the way a particular project
goes..... ;-)
Comment away!
Best,
Jon,
Give me fewer parts with a small amount of options
2 set of legs walking, and standing to fire Arms that are one piece and glue
to a solid sport but that have some animation in them A separate head.
Separate backpack is okay. Torso that sockets into the legs.
Honestly, I think the best balance out there has been achieved by Dreampod 9
with their Heavy Gear stuff. Some of their kits can get fiddly on the more
complex body designs, but that is to be expected, but they really seem to have
honed in on the right balance of fiddly to versatility.
-Eli
[quoted original message omitted]
I would fall in the middle. I want a unit of mecha (let's say 10 max for the
sake of arguement) to have a good variety of poses. I also want a limited
number of parts, let's say 10 parts as well. 40 parts will be too time
consuming to use more than one or two in a game.
I do not care about looking like someone elses figure, I care about a hi
level of duplication on the table.
And your right, I'll look at a 40 part kit and it will probably keep going
back into the "to do" bin. Someone mentions 40 parts, and I start thinking
modeling rather than a figure for gaming. I would start to treat it like a
shelf model and it that would take me weeks to build.
That's me anyway.
Regards, martin
[quoted original message omitted]
> Jon,
Thanks Eli; just to clarify, I didn't actually mention the size of
mini I'm talking about - this isn't a small "infantry walker" type,
it's a fairly big mecha - significantly bigger than the old original
DP9 1/87 scale Gears.....
Jon (GZG)
> -----Original Message-----
Scale certainly does change things a bit, but if you are talking about metal
parts still there's always the hassle of getting it to all stay together while
you are putting it together. Most of the plastic kits out there benefit from
be poseable after construction so you don't have to worry about their pose
being right while you build them.
-Eli
Thanks Eli; just to clarify, I didn't actually mention the size of mini I'm
talking about - this isn't a small "infantry walker" type, it's a fairly
big
mecha - significantly bigger than the old original
DP9 1/87 scale Gears.....
Jon (GZG)
> I would fall in the middle. I want a unit of mecha (let's say 10 max
Thanks Martin - as I explained in answer to Eli's first post, I
realised I'd forgotten to mention size - this is a BIG model we're
talking about, if anyone would buy and build more than two or three at most,
I'd be surprised (but very pleased!).
Jon (GZG)
> ----- Original Message -----
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Thanks Eli; just to clarify, I didn't actually mention the size of
mini I'm talking about - this isn't a small "infantry walker" type,
it's a fairly big mecha - significantly bigger than the old original
DP9 1/87 scale Gears.....
Jon (GZG)
Well if it's BIG the more options the better!
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I'd love to see some 15mm Mechs! Poseability would be nice, but I agree with
Martin that it's better not to have too many parts. Breaking up the legs into
upper, lower and foot parts would allow for the gretest variety in poses but
can be tricky to build. I remember some 6mm Mechs that had ball joints for
arms and legs with fitting sockets,I always thought this was a great way of
doing it. You could still pose the arms and legs but assembly was easy as you
had relatively large areas of cotact. I would opt for easy to build models
with fewer parts. Maybe you could have different legs and arms for posing.
No matter which way you chose to do it, I'll buy at least one
;-)
Christian Weinhold
MECHworld
Von: Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> An: gzg@firedrake.org Betreff: Re:
Question to all, re Mecha kits...
Datum: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 19:34:52 +0100
> I would fall in the middle. I want a unit of mecha (let's say 10 max
Thanks Martin - as I explained in answer to Eli's first post, I
realised I'd forgotten to mention size - this is a BIG model we're
talking about, if anyone would buy and build more than two or three at most,
I'd be surprised (but very pleased!).
Jon (GZG)
> ----- Original Message -----
Links:
> On 4/03/2012 5:07 AM, Ground Zero Games wrote:
I have a couple old Macross/Battletech kits that would stand about
15-20cm high I guess. Those kits only had 12-15 parts and are a little
too static for my liking, though when they come out for the first time there
are quite a few "wows". 40 parts on a kit this size would be far more useful
and still on the small size for detail and posability so no that number of
parts wouldn't freak me out but then I came into the hobby from model
building. The problem with something that size is
weight/balance. A hollow kit will allow more dynamic poses without
wanting to fall on it's face all the time. A solid resin/metal kit might
allow a lot of different poses on the torso and arms but would have to be
static lower down to get the thing to balance properly and stand up on a game
table. Of course when it starts standing on terrain.....
If you are talking that relative scale in 15mm then a 40 part kit is probably
ok and you'd probably get away with a solid resin kit. I haven't been
following it closely but Privateer Press is releasing some extra miniatures
for their Warmachine game later this year and it would seem to me that the
size that they are looking at might make good mecha for 15mm. I take it that
they are solid resin kits with some metal though I am not sure about the part
numbers.
So in summary: Mecha in 15mm, 40 parts OK, solid Resin/metal OK.
Mecha in 25mm, 40 parts too few, solid
metal/resin too heavy.
OK, none of the other posts had come in when I replied.
Bigger is certailny a consideration. But as someone pointed out, if it's big
and it's metal, it gets very heavy. Heavy means hard to transport an hard to
ship. Heavy also means they tend to return to kit form of their own accord.
Anything much bigger than a Warmachine heavy or a GW Space marine dreadnought
gets to be a problem. If you are going back into resin, that's a whole nother
story!
Martin
[quoted original message omitted]
I loved the level of detail on the old DP9 Heavy Gear's which I use as
size 0.5 to size 1 walkers in Stargrunt or super-heavy PA depending on
the day.
Beyond that size (say 4"), mecha I will not buy. The 'I'm a big target
standing up and I fall over easily' reality just kneecaps my
enjoyment. I have been impressed by Tom McCarthy's 2.5-3' tall Eldar
(name escapes me - Titan?) as it is the most massive single resin I've
ever seen, but knowing the cost or resin now and how many other things I could
get for the same value, definitely not something I'd buy. If
it's over about 3"-4" tall, it's not for me. Now, if I had to defend
myself with objects from my gaming table, I'd definitely choose that Eldar
Titan as it would make an excellent club (once).
I do agree with Martin about one thing - metal models go
ass-over-teakettle much easier than resins. Even in my stargate FT
game, the metal battleship from studio bergstrom took several tumbles whereas
the resin cruisers and destroyers from the 3D printer didn't because they were
much lighter and would much less suceptible to slight perturbations. If you've
got a huge mech, you'll need a wide base for stability and that gets
challenging on the tabletop if you have much terrain.
TomB
PS - Thanks for the page ref Roger. I missed that when I read through
there several times. Still, having cores versus not having cores can
notably change the utility of the last 1/2 to 3/5ths of your ship....
It depends on scale. For a microarmor/dirtside piece, then something
like the 1980's FASA Battletech Warhammer or Marauder is fine, because I might
want to put a battalion on the table. At the other end of the
scale, I think that the Armorcast/Mike Biasi Reaver titan was a good
example of a really big (but posable) model with about 15 pieces. In between,
a great example of a well designed kit is the current Forgeworld Contemptor
dreadnought. You can see the number of pieces if you search "contemptor" on
eBay and look at some of the Chinese and Russian recasters, they show all of
the pieces. A lot of the versatility comes from using the right kind of joint
in the right place.
J
> --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> From: Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com>
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I think the allure of poseability may be a siren's song here.
Though there certainly is an "oooo shiny" aspect regarding more options in
gaming miniatures, but realistically the more pieces the more work there is to
get it on the table and to keep it on the table. Even larger
models become horribly over-fiddly when they are being assembled to go
onto the gaming table and are definitely less likely to hold up as well as a
smartly designed models with a few, good, key options available.
Keeping limbs one-piece but providing optional sets or poses is one way
to go. This will all for durability in play and provide the flexibility in
posing to make them look good on the table without compromising that
durability. Assembly for a force of any size then become manageable, promoting
the purchase and use of more than one model per player.
-Eli
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Right off the bat, Size? For me, anything over 2 inches tall is pretty much a
collecter's item not a gaming piece, and as such I skip right over. The New
Gruntz Mech is too tall, for example.
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 09:42, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> A quick hypothetical question to all out there in list-land -
Votoms and Landmates yes. Gundam, no. Anything over 5 scale meters tall, might
as well paint a target on it.
> When you get a kit of a gaming mecha (something for use on the table,
> If you were faced with a white-metal Mecha kit with LOTS of parts -
That depends, good joints then more is ok, crappy joints few is better. It all
depends how much thought went in to those points.
Sent from my iPhone
> On 5 Mar 2012, at 05:43, "Evyn MacDude" <infojunky@ceecom.net> wrote:
> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
The
> New Gruntz Mech is too tall, for example.
If we are talking a large walker for 15/25mm scale then I am excited.
Too many bits is off putting, not least of which because I always struggle to
get bits to fit together quite right with such kits.
The only huge walkers that I have any experience of are the ones available
from The Baggage Train. They are, in my opinion, made up of too many bits. I
made them work because I really like huge (particularly non humanoid) walkers.
For all the pieces, they don't include that much in the way of poseability.
My thoughts
> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
The
> New Gruntz Mech is too tall, for example.
Well, I'm looking at something at the top end of your "acceptable"
range, but not too huge - maybe 2.5" to 3" overall height, but quite
"stocky" and bulky in design - wide, squat and powerful.
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 09:42, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
Definitely a strong Votoms style flavour to it, would scale as a
Votoms-size unit if used for 25/28mm, or slightly bigger when used
with 15mm. This is a "Walking Main Battle Tank" type of unit,
bristling with various (customisable) weapons both body-mount and
hand-carried.
Jon (GZG)
> When you get a kit of a gaming mecha (something for use on the
It
> all depends how much thought went in to those points.
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
Hmm, posability would be nice, as long as it doesn't become a pinning
hell. 2 or 3 structural pieces per arm/leg (excluding hands/weapons) +
add-on armour plating would still be doable. If more, than it might be
an option to just offer several arm/legs variations.
And considering the size, maybe making the bulk out of resin would be an
option?
> Ground Zero Games wrote:
From collating the responses so far, and my own thoughts on it, I'm
starting to lean towards partly pre-assembled limbs with pre-cast
pose variations available, but still with enough flexibility to allow some
custom pose variation during assembly.
> And considering the size, maybe making the bulk out of resin would be
It would be, but at this stage I won't be going that route - I no
longer have resin facilities in-house, and I don't want to be dealing
with contract casters (for lots of reasons - reliability, time
delays, cost etc)
> On Saturday 03 March 2012 17:42:42 Ground Zero Games wrote:
Beyond standing/kneeling/aiming not at all important.
> If you were faced with a white-metal Mecha kit with LOTS of parts -
I'd never buy it.
Even your PA troops have caused too many headaches, and they have three or
four pieces. The big issue is when the parts don't match up perfectly, and you
have to spend ages filing fiddly little joints so that they actually fit
together.
More than a few pieces would be too much of a nightmare.
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> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 01:30, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> >textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative
The
> >New Gruntz Mech is too tall, for example.
Jon you might want to consider this, larger upright figures tend to get
knocked over more often than shorter ones. So a more robust construction
(meaning fewer parts with really good glue points) would save the purchasers a
lot of greif on the table. A local group does 28mm
Battletech/Robotech and the bigger models take the heaviest beating.
Just as a consideration, the current GW Space Marine Dreadnought, it is a hair
over 2 inches tall, and on it's current base is very stable on the table. (If
they weren't so bleeding expensive I would have a couple, instead of kiping
the boys for a proxy)
> >
Ah, see most of the time when I see Mecha in my head, I see them as
Heavy/Extra-Heavy infantry that can keep up with MBTs and other
AFVs/APCs/IFVs.....
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> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 02:29, Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com> wrote:
> >
+
> >add-on armour plating would still be doable. If more, than it might
Whatever you can do to avoid top-heavy models is best.
Now, a set of Mecha-esque weapons suitable for Mecha 1.5 through 2.5
inches would be grand. Think Heavy Gear weapons packs from DP9 but larger....
Here's the sort of thing I'd love to see in a scale that is a 3-5"
walker, something that could do for 15mm and 25mm if you didn't put any
obviously 15mm (or conversely 25mm) hatches or viewports... if you can pick
the right surface bits, you can make it a bigger 15mm and smaller 25mm
model....
http://resource.mmgn.com/Gallery/full/Battlefield-2142.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/features/hardware/bf2142/bf214
2_screen002.jpg
http://static.ogl.ru/i/00/01/19/90/l1154329267.jpg
The trick with dual scale figures is if the thing is supposed to be something
humans can fit inside of, you have to keep that in mind in both scales. Some
of the DP9 heavy gears would push that theory (they weren't meant to be dual
scale, but I repurposed them) due to head sizes or a spindly body part for
using them in 25mm (worse for Battle Tech models).
I'd like to find a support mech for 25mm that is the 'main battle tank turret'
on legs more or less.
T.