Has anyone taken the time to make scratch built figures for the Hymn before
battle book series?
ie, Shiva guns, M1/PIVADs, and God King floaters. It'd be
interesting to play that kind of game. The hard part would be the mobs of
Posleen troops. I suspect that a card with numbers indicating the quality
(number of types of weapons they can fire) would be the thing to do.
Also, has anyone taken the time to make up Posleen command rules? They'll need
some interesting rules.
- Morale failures cause the Posee's to run towards fire, not away.
- Troops/Threshkeen in the path of Posleen advances have a good
chance to break if the Posleen come within charge or hand to hand range.
- God Kings act like awfully effective ZAD with line of sight range
- Emplaced defenses like mines, booby traps, etc are exceedingly
effective against Posleen formations due to amazing stupidity.
- Area fire effects are exceedingly effective against Posleen
formations due to their closely bunched nature.
St John, perhaps you've got a modeling/sales opportunity here? I can
get you in touch with John Ringo (the author) to cover this axis of advance?
If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, you must read the
books by John Ringo about the Posleen War. http://www.baen.com
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> - Emplaced defenses like mines, booby traps, etc
Here's the problem with the Posleen: There are a LOT
of non-LOS methods of taking out God-King floaters
that would IRL mean that they would be more or less a nuisance, not a force
capable of conquering most of the planet.
Hornet Wide Area Munitions
http://www.wood.army.mil/tsm/hornet.htm
http://www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/landmine/antitank/w0004548.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m93.htm
With a minor modification to targeting software, a Hornet gauntlet could ripe
the entire C2 structure out of a Posleen force in seconds. Without any
casualties.
SADARM submunitions and STAFF main battle tank rounds would also be hideously
effective.
Mr.Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light Infantryman of 20 years ago
and doesn't really grok how the modern battlefield works.
> At 3:35 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
I get the impression that the God Kings are amazingly numerous. The main
problem is that the landings pretty much severed a large portion of transport
capability across the planet making ground transport through certain areas and
cutting off logistics to certain types of munitions.
Still, the WAM is interesting in concept as an Anti-God King platform.
> SADARM submunitions and STAFF main battle tank rounds
The problem with any possleen force is that they present a huge direct fire
threat to any unit near them that unmasks. The foot troops that are armed with
the mass drivers and other weapons tend to make MBTs brew pretty fast under a
large mass of fire.
> Mr. Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light
Hmm, perhaps you could offer thoughts and ideas? I've been to several
sit down type book sign-ings with the guy and he's quite interesting
and personable. Very approachable.
> I get the impression that the God Kings are amazingly numerous. The
It only severs the transport lines if the Posleen are an effective block. Good
artillery and the munitions John talked about mean the Posleen aren't an
effective block.
However, you should all go buy the book anyway. Also read the rants at
www.johnringo.com
> At 8:25 PM -0500 1/23/03, Laserlight wrote:
The impression I have is that the Posies have the bulk of the plains areas
which pretty much bisects the North American continent. The don't do well in
mountainous and cold regions.
The big issue is one of supply and sustaining the observation for the
artillery. UAVs are toast as soon as they break the horizon. Single weapons
delivered by artillery are as well. My understanding is that you could plaster
a posleen force on the ground with all the artillery in a corps and run clean
out of ammo and still not get all of them.
Also, realize, they're still invading the planet and still landing.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The impression I have is that the Posies have the
Which the plains are come this time of year.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The big issue is one of supply and sustaining the
Battery 3. That's 18 rounds. 1 is SADARM, 17 are
cheap HE. The God-King buys it, and a couple others
are dead, but that GK's retinue are also suddendy about as combat effective as
so many dogs.
> At 8:06 PM -0800 1/23/03, John Atkinson wrote:
And there are hundreds of thousands of more god kings on other planets many on
the way to this new planet swarming with thresh.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I get the impression that the God Kings are
Less than 100K.
> main problem is that the landings pretty much
Preposition loads of 'em everywhere. That EN BN in Fredricksburg
(coincidentally, my old National Guard unit) should have had a couple hundred
on pallets waiting for a chance to use 'em.
> The problem with any possleen force is that they
OK, but STAFF and SADARM are OTH threats. Which Posleen can't handle.
> >Mr. Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light
He's not going to adopt an idea that makes his premise obsolete.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
It's easier to make rounds than produce fliers. It beats trying to go at 'em
with an OICW.
> > >Mr. Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light
<shrug> You just work it into the next book--along with a Postie
countermeasure. For instance, instead of expending snipers, hook up a cheap
video cam to one of those automated guns aka manjacks. Sniper can sit a safe
distance away and still target the God Kings.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Here's the problem with the Posleen: There are a LOT
Exactly *how* good are the Posleen God-Kings in their ZAD role? (I
haven't had time to read the books, so I don't know.)
If they're comparable to or better than the THEL (currently under
development), then any PGM-based ways to kill them are quite seriously
degraded.
Later,
> At 7:09 AM +0100 1/24/03, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
If an F-18 breaks the horizon, their life span is measured in
seconds. The posties have direct line of sight KE weapons that will slag an
Abrams from the front. As the book says, "...the God Kings, whose weapons are
automatically targeted and frighteningly accurate. They;re accurate enough to
act as antiaircraft fire against stealth fighters, for God's sake."
For something like 500 million Posleen in a force, you'll have nearly 5000 God
Kings.
> If they're comparable to or better than the THEL (currently under
Additionally, anything the God Kings start firing at, their Oolts will start
shooting at. "The Posleen three millimeter railguns go through Bradleys the
long way and about one in ten carry a hypervelocity missile launcher, which
will take out an Abrams with a frontal hit. Wheile they're 'unaimed,' what the
term actually means is that the weapons don't have sights." "However, the
Posleen seem to be naturals at firing from the hip."
See http://www.baen.com/library/0671318411/0671318411.htm for the
first book in the series on line. You can get it in HTML, RTF, Palm Rocket
Book and MS Reader formats.
Saint Louis is enjoying single digit days/negative degree nights lately
but it will (according to the weather guessers) 50 in less than a week then
nose dive time again for the temp. How cold for how long to affect their
performance?
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:29:01 -0800 (PST) Brian Bilderback
> <greywanderer987@yahoo.com> writes:
> --- Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:
> Exactly *how* good are the Posleen God-Kings in
They can kill anything they can see--including
individual artillery shells. They don't bother with artillery barrages, just
with single shells individually. They learned their lesson on those. Which is
why I suggested the SADARM rounds be camoflaged in a standard artillery fire
mission.
***
They can kill anything they can see--including
individual artillery shells. They don't bother with artillery barrages, just
with single shells individually. They learned their lesson on those. Which is
why I suggested the SADARM rounds be camoflaged in a standard artillery fire
mission.
***
I missed the first part of this discussion; I think my mail server went
comatose. Ryan's reply to Oerjan was the first I'd seen. If so, forgive my
ignorance. I've not read any John Ringo novels.
Isn't part of the problem with such 'god'-like beings that you can't be
certain of their limitations? You don't suppose they could detect the
different flight characteristics of the various rounds?
Of course, I can see where a higher level planners would assume they could
learn to counter: 'I'm sorry, Captain, but we can waste this advantage to save
your men. We need this to work for the big push. (archaic?) Request to alter
the ammo for the fire mission denied.'
The_Beast
> For something like 500 million Posleen in a force, you'll have nearly
IIRC it's about 400 normals per God King, on average. And for those of you who
haven't read the books: yes, he did mean 500 million
Da Beast said:
> Isn't part of the problem with such 'god'-like beings that you can't be
There are, unfortunately, enough God-Kings that you can get a good feel
for what their limitations are. They might surprise you, but they're not
supernatural. Posleens come in two flavors: the normals are a bit smarter than
dogs, the God Kings are about as smart as a human. The normals are devoted to
their GodKings as some dogs are to their owners. "God King" is a description
from the point of view of the normals.
***
They can kill anything they can see--including individual artillery
shells.
***
***
There are, unfortunately, enough God-Kings that you can get a good feel
for what their limitations are. They might surprise you, but they're not
supernatural.
***
Definitely YMMV. I've not had the experience of watching incoming, but sounds
supernatural to moi!
I'll just have to take your word for it. ;->=
The_Beast
> At 7:34 AM -0600 1/24/03, devans@nebraska.edu wrote:
They aren't actually gods per say. The structure of the Posleen societey is
that you have small numbers of relatively intelligent and articulate rulers
that provide the genetics for the next generation of Posleen, most of which
are dumb as a post and can only eat, fight and shoot (crapping is assumed).
Some of the lower ranks are slightly more intelligent and some God Kings
cultivate this. They aren't any more powerful on an individual basis than your
horse that's been
cross-bread with a crocodile as far as combat skills, how ever, the
god kings get around on the floating saucer things that are out fitted with
massively powerful weapons.
> At 8:41 AM -0500 1/24/03, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
And that's not the entire force. That's about what comes down in one
Dodecahedron Ship and gets spread out over the area of the size of a state.
They're here for the food and the land. Everything animal (including human's
is food).
> At 8:39 AM -0600 1/24/03, devans@nebraska.edu wrote:
Its a great set of books. I reccommend you read them. Read the one online
first. The other series starting with March Upcountry with David Weber is also
good.
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 4:41 PM +0100 1/24/03, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
They have a 4 year maturation cycle and will farm local animals as a food
source. If they have food problems, they'll also use their own for food.
KarlHeinz said:
> Sounds like an ecological problem in the making. 500 Million dog-sized
They're horse-sized, not dog-sized--"dog" was for their intelligence. I
don't think there are 500 million on one command ship, though--IIRC the
invasion of one of the southeastern US states has roughly 4 million Posties.
As for ecological problem...yeah, I'd say a Posleen invasion definitely
qualifies as an ecological problem....
> At 11:24 AM -0500 1/24/03, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:
I
> don't think there are 500 million on one command ship, though--IIRC the
I think that the attack on the DC region involved 500 million based on one
character's description to the president as to the strategic
and tactical situation. The South east only had portions of a Do-Dec
iirc. In the Raburn Gap area that is.
> As for ecological problem...yeah, I'd say a Posleen invasion definitely
Something of an understatement.
> --- Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
That much I don't know, since I haven't read the books. I was just commenting
on weather in general. I'm also having a hard time following this, because
every time I read "Posleen" it makes me think of "Poteen," and then I'm stuck
with images of Earth being invaded by Darby O'Gill and the Little People,
Faith and Begorrah!
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> And there are hundreds of thousands of more god
For those of us who haven't read them: thresh?
The Posleen don't seem to have a problem with it.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
I've read the Posleen series and I've enjoyed it, but Ringo has made the
"weakness" of the God Kings a little too obvious in the last book.
Point: The auto-targeting on the saucers is effective against any
guided munitions, as shown by their destruction of the sensor artillery shell
in the last book, so SADARM isn't going to work against them.
Point: The auto-targeting can't hit regular artillery shells.
Point: The auto-targeting can hit snipers using camo and IR blocking
as shown in the first book.
Point: The auto-targeting could not hit the scout in the last book
after he had been hit with an EMP device.
Therefore the autotargeting is based on electrical signature. Any
non-electrical fire control is going to be "invisible" and will rip up
the Posleens.
So, as one guy suggested in book 3, you get a bunch of old fashioned Browning
.30's and such and go to town on them.
Just my deduction based on my reading but I'm guessing that someone will pick
up on it in the 4th book.
All in all it's a very good series, but I'm a little disgusted that the
auto-targetings Achilles heel is made so obvious, yet the good guys
don't pick up on it.
Bill
***********************************************************
owner-gzg-digest@lists.CSUA.B
erkeley.EDU (The GZG Digest) To:
gzg-digest@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Sent by: cc:
owner-gzg-digest@lists.CSUA.B Subject: The
GZG Digest V2 #1472 erkeley.EDU
01/24/2003 01:00 AM
Please respond to gzg-l
The GZG Digest Thursday, January 23 2003 Volume 02: Number 1472
The following subjects are discussed in this issue:
-
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
-
See the end of the digest for information on unsubscribing to the GZG digest
list, or subscribing to the GZG main list.
-
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:06:40 -0800 (PST)
From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
> - --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The big issue is one of supply and sustaining the
Battery 3. That's 18 rounds. 1 is SADARM, 17 are
cheap HE. The God-King buys it, and a couple others
are dead, but that GK's retinue are also suddendy about as combat effective as
so many dogs.
John
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:13:43 -0800 (PST)
From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
> - --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I get the impression that the God Kings are
Less than 100K.
> main problem is that the landings pretty much
Preposition loads of 'em everywhere. That EN BN in Fredricksburg
(coincidentally, my old National Guard unit) should have had a couple hundred
on pallets waiting for a chance to use 'em.
> The problem with any possleen force is that they
OK, but STAFF and SADARM are OTH threats. Which Posleen can't handle.
> >Mr. Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light
He's not going to adopt an idea that makes his premise obsolete.
John
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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:20:56 -0500
From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
Subject: Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
> > >Mr. Ringo is an excellent writer, but he's an Light
<shrug> You just work it into the next book--along with a Postie
countermeasure. For instance, instead of expending snipers, hook up a cheap
video cam to one of those automated guns aka manjacks. Sniper can sit a safe
distance away and still target the God Kings.
____________________________
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:09:11 +0100
From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
Subject: Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Here's the problem with the Posleen: There are a LOT
Exactly *how* good are the Posleen God-Kings in their ZAD role? (I
haven't had time to read the books, so I don't know.)
If they're comparable to or better than the THEL (currently under
development), then any PGM-based ways to kill them are quite seriously
degraded.
Later,
Oerjan oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- -Hen3ry
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:49:00 -0500
From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
> At 7:09 AM +0100 1/24/03, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
If an F-18 breaks the horizon, their life span is measured in
seconds. The posties have direct line of sight KE weapons that will slag an
Abrams from the front. As the book says, "...the God Kings, whose weapons are
automatically targeted and frighteningly accurate. They;re accurate enough to
act as antiaircraft fire against stealth fighters, for God's sake."
For something like 500 million Posleen in a force, you'll have nearly 5000 God
Kings.
> If they're comparable to or better than the THEL (currently under
Additionally, anything the God Kings start firing at, their Oolts will start
shooting at. "The Posleen three millimeter railguns go through Bradleys the
long way and about one in ten carry a hypervelocity missile launcher, which
will take out an Abrams with a frontal hit. Wheile they're 'unaimed,' what the
term actually means is that the weapons don't have sights." "However, the
Posleen seem to be naturals at firing from the hip."
See http://www.baen.com/library/0671318411/0671318411.htm for the
first book in the series on line. You can get it in HTML, RTF, Palm Rocket
Book and MS Reader formats.
> At 8:52 AM -0800 1/24/03, Brian Bilderback wrote:
Ringo uses lots of neat Posleen terms for things. One of which is what the
Posties call "food". More or less. Food for them is anything they can eat,
which is just about every kind of animal on just about any planet. When they
hit a population center rather than shooting everything that moves, they
actually move through it like a close mob
of butchers with mono-molecular blades. Civilians caught in the path
are butchars and handed off to other posties who transfer them to larders.
> At 11:12 AM -0600 1/24/03, bbrush@unlnotes.unl.edu wrote:
The problem is that the Posleen God Kings aren't stuck in one mode. They do
adapt. The one's that tracked the LRP team down in the hills
of N Ga/Western N Carolina are a good example of that.
> Point: The auto-targeting on the saucers is effective against any
> Point: The auto-targeting can't hit regular artillery shells.
I thought it could but only barely. Single rounds were vulnerable.
> Point: The auto-targeting can hit snipers using camo and IR blocking
IF their signature is discernable from the background. Its a question of what
the background noise is.
> Point: The auto-targeting could not hit the scout in the last book
The problem is getting the EMP device on the God King. Any single firing
object is vulnerable to massive counter fire. Snipers work great when they're
in a mass of troops. Snipers by themselves usually get shredded by the
automatic counter fire from the oolts in line of sight.
> Therefore the autotargeting is based on electrical signature. Any
Until it unmasks and the posleen start shooting at it. A mob armed with rail
guns, missile launchers and flechette guns pretty much starts shooting at
anything that presents a threat. Sure your sadarm fires a round, then the
posties shoot back at it.
> So, as one guy suggested in book 3, you get a bunch of old fashioned
Huge mass of fire works because you rip through multiple ranks and interrupt
the firing process they don't see what's hitting them as you've just knocked
ranks 1, 2, and 3 down in rapid succession. PIVADS work pretty well because of
the weight of fire.
> Just my deduction based on my reading but I'm guessing that someone
> owner-gzg-digest@lists.CSUA.B
> erkeley.EDU (The GZG Digest) To:
> owner-gzg-digest@lists.CSUA.B Subject:
> [quoted text omitted]
> [quoted text omitted]
> 01/24/2003 01:00
> Please respond to
> [quoted text omitted]
> [quoted text omitted]
> The GZG Digest Thursday, January 23 2003 Volume 02 : Number
With regards to EMP, you mis-understood me.
In the 3rd book, a God-King has a "special" weapon created for him by
the
geek God-King. He lobs it at the LRRP team and all their electronics
die.
After that happens he (the God-King) can't get his weapon to lock onto
the target even when he's shooting back at them or running in plain site.
Also to the best of my memory there isn't an instance where the GK's shoot
down regular artillery shells, but the sensor ones last less than a minute.
So you have a system that a) can hit targets with functioning electronics, b)
can't lock onto targets without functioning electronics, and c) many
examples of this. All of which add up to something any brain-boy should
be able to connect the dots on.
It's a small quibble, and maybe Ringo has some twist planned to confuse the
reader, but my gut tells me that's where he's heading.
I still recommend the books.
Bill
**************************************************
Ryan M Gill
<rmgill@mindspring.com> To:
gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu, gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu
Sent by: cc:
owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.B Subject: Re:
Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
erkeley.EDU
01/24/2003 12:00 PM
Please respond to gzg-l
> At 11:12 AM -0600 1/24/03, bbrush@unlnotes.unl.edu wrote:
> The problem is that the Posleen God Kings aren't stuck in one mode.
> Point: The auto-targeting can't hit regular artillery shells.
> Also to the best of my memory there isn't an instance where the GK's
IIRC that's because shells in a ballistic arc don't last long to begin with. I
don't recall any shells getting shot down, but I could be wrong.
> --- bbrush@unlnotes.unl.edu wrote:
> Point: The auto-targeting on the saucers is
passively guided munitions get a free ride, as they can't tell 'em from
standard ones until they fire their submunitions.
Hornet still works.
By my reading of the series it's not just stuff that has an EM signature as
we know that the auto-targeting works against, but ANYTHING that has
working electronics, which would include passively-guided munitions.
The bit with the LRRP who couldn't be locked up after he was hit with EMP is
the defining piece of info for me.
Now obviously I can't prove my theory and Ringo may change everything in the
next book.
Bill
John Atkinson
<johnmatkinson@yahoo.com To:
gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re:
Posleen/HymnB4Battle Figures?
owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.B
erkeley.EDU
01/24/03 10:36 PM
Please respond to gzg-l
> --- bbrush@unlnotes.unl.edu wrote:
> Point: The auto-targeting on the saucers is
> --- devans@nebraska.edu wrote:
> Isn't part of the problem with such 'god'-like
They ain't gods nor godlike. This is a rough translation of their own term for
that caste. They
are just smarter Posleen in high-tech fliers.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> Exactly *how* good are the Posleen God-Kings in
How long would it take them to *stop* ignoring artillery barrages after you've
used this "hidden PGM" tactic once? (Ie., do they ignore them because they
can't do anything much about them, or because they don't consider them to be
enough of a threat?)
(SADARM seems to have been cancelled BTW, which surprised me a fair bit
-
now it looks as if the US Army will have to buy either the
Swedish/French
BONUS or the German SMArt 155 instead... seems a bit out-of-character
for
the "NIH"-sensitive US :-/ )
Later,