planetary invasion

3 posts ยท Sep 29 1998 to Sep 30 1998

From: tom.anderson@a...

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:52:45 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: re: planetary invasion

> > Los wrote:
How
> > > effective would be ground based wepons? Obviously they could be

i think that it is fairly obvious that a planet has more resources available
than a space fleet, in terms of power, room, environment
support, etc. burying huge class-ten beam batteries under mountain
ranges, with only the emitters poking through, would be pretty tough (assuming
that they can shoot through the atmosphere, and there are ways to help with
that, such as firing a smaller beam first to drive the air out of the way for
the main beam). missiles (MT and SML) could all be sited in silos, on railway
carriages, or on SSBNs. pulse torpedoes might
also work, but i'm not sure - PSB too high to tell. in fact, the defence
of a planet seems to be quite easy, much easier than capturing one. we're back
to medieval castles again, only on a bigger scale.

this applies especially in the GZG model of spaceflight, where a huge ship is
10000 tonnes, the size of a modern heavy cruiser, and two battleships, half a
dozen cruisers and assorted escorts comprises a big
fleet. otoh, if you use a large-scale universe like star wars, where an
assault fleet may have ten immense (million-tone) star destroyers or
whatever, then things are a bit different.

so, for my part, i think that the tough part is figuring out how planets can
be captured at all! bear in mind that we are talking about capturing the
planet, with industry and population as intact as possible. this
means no/very few nukes/rocks.

i imagine that planetary defences would be situated away from major urban
centres, so that if an attacker does nuke them, or use other big weapons, few
civillians will die. otoh, they might put them in towns so that an attacker
will not use weapons of mass distruction for fear of wiping out that which he
wants to capture.

the main obstacles to decent planetary defence, then are:

- cost. if you have twenty planets to defend, then static defences are
going to cost a lot, whereas an ftl fleet which you can dispatch wherever it
is needed is going to be cheaper. probably.

- sensors. people have this idea that a planet will have better sensors
than a fleet. i'm not so sure.

the resolution of an instrument is determined by the size of the aperture; i
assume that all available sensors will be linked together to form an
interferometer, a virtual instrument where the aperture is the size of the
array of sensors.

a planetary interferometer can only be about 15000 km across (the diameter of
the planet), although it could be extended to the moon (if
there is one) or far-out satellites.

however, the fleet can spread out over as much space as it wants, forming an
interferometer potentially a million km across. it would have
less photon-gathering capability, but would have much better resolution.
not much good for astronomy, very good for atacking a planet.

if a planet did use far-out satellites to enlarge the array, they would
be vulnerable to destruction by the attacking fleet. could be a good
scenario - a destroyer detatchment has to knock out a far-orbit sensor
farm before an assault can go ahead.

i suppose civiliian/scientific instruments ould be commandeered - i can
imagine a footfall / id4 type movie where hubble is used as fire
control.

- gravity. projectiles fired from the planet will lose about 10 km/s of
speed climbing the gravity well. likewise, those fired from space at the
planet will gain 10 km/s. it is not too hard to deal with this by adding
big boosters or using a railgun.

the defenders have an asset in the speed with which the attacker can land
troops once he has interface superiority (ie space and air superiority plus
destruction of AA batteries).

i think the consensus is that the attacker will ferry troops down in
company- or battalion-size dropships (squad-size assault dropships being
used for landing marines to capture the planethead, suppress defences, arrange
landing strips, etc). this cannot be a fast process.

assume ten troopships with four LC's each, ech carrying a company of
troops, with a 15 minute drop-land-offload-launch-dock-load cycle. this
makes 80 companies an hour. actually, this is quite a bit. even if those are
brigade transports, the whole lot could be down in a day.

this brings me to another problem: even if they are brigade transports, the
attacker will only have around 100 000 men on the ground. in the gzg universe,
this is not so bad; i think a big planet might have 50 to 100 million people
(remeber that the NAC capital world gets a population as large as england, and
that this is amazing; then allow for growth), and so an army of around half a
million (is this right? uk population is 60 million, our army is about 300
000, right? or am i way off message
here?).

these are still 5:1 odds, but the attacker has total air and space
superiority; he can call down naval barrages and airstrikes. if the
attacking fleet has 50 a-battery equivalents of firepower, then there is
roughly one a-battery per in-combat regiment. this is not a lot, unless
a-batteries are devastating and fast-firing (and there is an argument
that this is the case, if we go with the idea that a turn's firing in FT is
rastering a beam over the target's approximate location).

if your planets are bigger (one to ten billion people each, roughly like
earth), then the attacker is stuffed. there will be 10 to 100 million troops
waiting for him; this will require a biiig assault fleet, or some
unconventional tactics. those titanium rods (a la footfall) could come in
handy here.

brief historical comment: virtually all mass invasions have been by land (eg
germany vs russia) or across a short stretch of water (usually the english
channel) from friendly territory (eg uk vs germany; i think a
few us troops showed up for that one too :-).

so, in short, i think capturing planets is going to be bloody hard, and that
we don't need to spend too long figuring out how to make it harder! the only
anti argument i can think of which really holds water is the cost one.

incidentally, has anyone considered using a nova cannon against a
planet? at range, it might be non-genocidal.

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:03:38 -0500 (CDT)

Subject: re: planetary invasion

> You wrote:

> this brings me to another problem: even if they are brigade
or am i way off message here?).

In 1994, United Kingdom's population was 58,394,600 persons, of whom
48,707,500 lived in England. The doubling time is 'not applicable; doubling
time exceeds 100 years', and the 2010 population estimate for the UK was a
mere 61,127,000. It's safe to say that there probably won't be more than 75mil
inhabitants, especially once colonization gets going to siphon off some of the
excess. In 1995, total active duty personell was a mere 236,900 persons, (army
49%, navy 21.3%, air force 29.7%). However, the UK is not exactally what I'd
call the most militaristic of nations. A colony organized with the intent of
national defense may well have many more troops. Israel, with 5,619,000
inhabitants (counting the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, and settlers in
Jewish localities in West Bank and Gaza Strip) has 175,000 active duty
military personel, and 76.6% of those are Army. More than 10 times as many per
capita as the United Kingdom. Plus what percentage of their population as a
reserve? Also I seriously doubt that there will be gun control on a frontier
planet (especially if there is inimicable wildlife like Drake's "sauroids"
from Raj's Earth
<b>Bellvue</b> whatever.) and a lot of outdoorsy frontier types with
hunting rifles can be a nuisance. Just ask Bastard Tarleton about irregular
colonists.:)

> the english channel) from friendly territory (eg uk vs germany; i

Only on the defended beaches.

From: Mikko Kurki-Suonio <maxxon@s...>

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:18:46 +0300 (EEST)

Subject: re: planetary invasion

> On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:

> this brings me to another problem: even if they are brigade

Well, it depends on the culture. There are about 5 million Finns, yet we can
sport a 700 000 strong army in a time of crisis. And that *is*
trained men with modern(ish) weapons, in space of some days -- not "once
we get the war effort rolling".

The Israelis probably get even better percentage of population to fight.

Though the percentage is likely to fall as population increases -- I
don't see UK arming a similar percentage of its population even with assault
rifles. (I could be wrong, please correct me if you know better)

I think a colony, especially a one that has recently won independence, will be
rather close to the Heinleinian "everybody fights" ideal.

Reminds me of Battletech, really. The concept of a few companies of Mechs
taking a planet with a population of even a few million is just ludicrous.