Tom Anderson wrote, on whether or not every soldier can have a PA suit:
:
> in sp*** ma**** etc, the whole of the marines was armoured, even if
This is a very poor argument. The GW Space Marines are the equivalent to
John Atkinson's PA divisions - of *course* everyone of them has a PA
suit. They wouldn't be PA troops if they didn't have PA suits, after all...
However, the GW Marines make up a small fraction of a percent of the
Imperium's armed forces, so this example supports John, not you.
Regards,
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
I see powered armor, at least for the very long haul as being a "shock" force,
that is designed for very high tempo, short term operations. In fact, you
could make a case for police getting PA before soldiers would since a SWAT
team is never far from support, and seldom is in action for more then a few
hours at a time.
Interesting argument - I'll have to paint up some of my ESU PA in police
colors (any suggestions?) for use in my developing gang war/uprising
scenario...
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
> charles gray (?) wrote:
absolutely. modern tank-gun autoloaders are not reliable
enough. in twenty years, they will be. i'll put money on it. PA suits will
advance to the point where fixing cracks and dings in the armour consists of
slathering on
some putty (made of self-organising carbin naofibre
subunits in a boron nitrate paste, or summat) and having
at it with a blowtorch (boron nitrate + heat -> boron
nitride, one of the hardest known materials; bargain!),
and the 'muscles' are a self-healing smart plastic.
again, we will be able to see several ages of PA. just as once tanks were a
highly limited shock weapon, and have now become general purpose, widely used
war
machines, so will PA. there will be proto-PA used in
tunnel assaults only, then early-PA used in shock units,
then late-PA used by all foot troops.
> I see powered armor, at least for the very long haul as being a
you might make the case that the majority of operations in the future will be
such operations.
> In
absolutely - proto-PA could well be a system in law
enforcement, exploration, ship-ship boarding actions,
etc.
My police/ Paramilitary forces are painted in a light Blue trousers/
Black
Jacket/Helmet/Cap a'la typical US coppers. The PA unit is different.
Bright RED and as obvious as a riot control unit can be. The PD wants you to
see it
coming, much like mounted troops in crowd/riot control. BTW I use
grenadier future warriors and cyberpunk cops, and grenadier PA. Does anyone
else make
purpose-built future cops ? I know Partha does some Shadowrun stuff that
might be useful, but they're kinda heavy on the Armor and Weapons,
grenadier's cops with auto-shotguns and billy clubs were just the
ticket.
> ----------
> > scenario...
In
> > fact, you could make a case for police getting PA before soldiers
Noah spake thusly upon matters weighty:
If the real police are any guideline, all the Tac/ERT guys tend to
like to wear black, black and more black. Occaisionally some dark navy. They
might have little things of white lettering with SWAT, ERT, HRT, POLICE, FBI,
ATF or the like on them somewhere, but maybe not. OPP Tactical Response Unit
(TRU team as it was known) used to wear cammie jammies just like grunts. But
this partially resulted in an accidental (ish) death when a guy came out, saw
cammed up guys in his back yard with SMGs, got his shotgun, and fired at them
(and they then cut him down) because he didn't believe they were police
dressed like that. So now they don't wear woodland fatigues
anymore....probably black.
> Interesting argument - I'll have to paint up some of my ESU PA in
In
> fact, you could make a case for police getting PA before soldiers
/************************************************
i always thought powered peelers would be a good idea in any sort of
cyberpunkish future where crime spirals out
of control as urban population density and the rich-poor
gap rises. based on existing british cozzers, i would paint them blue, with
white checked stripes. add an ornage dot and some big numerals on the back for
recognition from aircraft, and a big blue flashing light on the head or
shoulder. in short, The Powered Arm Of The Law is more like a current police
car than a policeman.
> ---- you wrote:
> > scenario...
I won't take that bet. But the idea of hearing "WHAT'S ALL THIS THEN?" blasted
at 120 decibels over the suit speakers fills me with glee...
> ----------
tom.anderson@altavista.net[SMTP:tom.anderson@altavista.net]
> Reply To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
> At 01:55 PM 9/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
IIRC, this is pretty close to the outfits that some of New York's finest wear
in the movie "Fifth Element."
> On Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 01:41:10PM -0500, Jeff Lyon wrote:
Ya know, I'd _love_ to see a line of miniatures based around
that movie. The cops are good, the Mondoshiwan(?) are cool, the,
um, "space orcs" are cool, and who _wouldn't_ want Leeloo?
> ps i bet a pint someone will argue that peel didn't invent the police.
Not to justify a view of listers as argumentative, but City Watches and such
existed far back into the Rennaisance at least, and they were definite
precursors to the Police of today. There may even be
examples that far predate that - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if
the Romans had police like formations given their high level of law and
organization.
So, there's your pint. Feel free to collect it next time you are in Ottawa.
/************************************************
> i always thought powered peelers would be a good idea in
"BLAM! Police! BLAM-BLAM! Stop!....."
<grin>
Jon (GZG)
> ---- you wrote:
> I won't take that bet. But the idea of hearing "WHAT'S ALL THIS THEN?"
But can you genuflect in PA....?
("Evenin' all...")
Jon (GZG) (who is JUST old enough to remember Dixon of Dock Green in
B&W....) :)
> ----------
tom.anderson@altavista.net[SMTP:tom.anderson@altavista.net]
> Reply To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
> tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
PA suits for police also has one tremendous advantage-- they
won't have to shoot as many people. Think about it, today, officers often open
fire when they are fired on... but if you have a PA suit that is immune to
small caliber fire, then all they have to do is walk up to the fellow and take
his gun away. It won't help with criminals armed with
anti-armor weapons, but those are just a bit more conspicuous then a
typical revolver.
The best use for PA police today would be for the first guy or two through the
door in an Emergency Response Team situation. A squad or two might come in
andiny during riot control, certainly for intimidation purposes. However, you
are correct about losing SA, especially in tight spaces.
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> And if I ever finish my long awaited treatise on non-lethal (not as
Don't forget a finely perfected Puke laser.
Charles spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> PA suits for police also has one tremendous advantage-- they
Or to stop a threat to public safety, which may be present in the future in an
even larger scale, given the decline of cities, increased urbanized
populaitons, declining resources, ease of making firearms, etc.
Also, you can bet a number of people will be armed with HAMRs and the like.
but if you have a PA suit that is immune
> to small caliber fire, then all they have to do is walk up to the
But you lose 1. SA (SItuational Awareness) to some extent by being in a zoot
suit
2. You lose human contact - more important than SA to a lot of cops.
For example, the average disturbed person or person with a chip will react
better to a 'human' presence than the presence of a large metal behemoth that
represents some of the forces that are probably seen to
cause the distress (society, law, government, military, you name it -
authority and power in general, the well to do). Yes, these suits are
great for backing down gun-toting gangbangers (the sane, non-drugged
variety) but not so hot for solving domestics and mental health act calls (a
goodly chunk of police work). I still think, even in the future, for just this
type of reason, PA will remain a SWAT tool. It has its place where the cops
have to unsheath their claws. But in most situations, a human face and a kind
but firm voice can stop a lot of the incidents before they escalate. Also, the
costs of PA might keep it out of the hands of anyone but SWAT.
And if I ever finish my long awaited treatise on non-lethal (not as
someone pointed out non-violent) weapons, then maybe I can give the
SG2 cops some other options rather than gunning down the rioters. Since this
type of topic has come up again, I'll dig it up and see if I can finish it in
the next few days.
Tom.
/************************************************
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:48:01 +0100, Ground Zero Games
<jon@gzero.dungeon.com> wrote:
> The Law is more like a current police car than a
I always preferred:
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! Click. Click. "Stop! Police!"
> -----Original Message-----
What's to bet the descendant of the present day UK Police force will still be
armed with the devastating phrase of: STOP or I will yell STOP again! This has
most gun toting blaggers shaking in their boots.:)
> ---- agoodall wrote:
or even, in some of the dodgier parts of Manchester et al,
BEEP. BEBEEP. BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP. FWOOSH. KABOOM. "Stop, Police!"
> ---- jon/gzg wrote:
i was thinking an american would. in particular, i would have thought john
atkinson would whip out his byzantine coppers and prove me wrong.
> But the idea of hearing "WHAT'S ALL THIS THEN?"
click. bzzzzZZZZZ. ELLO ELLO ELLO.
this (sub)subsubthread is getting a bit silly, but there you go.
> ---- los wrote:
[note to colonials: there is a british stand-up comic
called Eddie Izzard who often does skits based on quite geeky things such as
'star trek' or 'escape from colditz: the boardgame']
there is an eddie izzard sketch where he proposes some new, and quite amusing,
modes for the phasers from star trek. so, "set phasers to..."
- limp: the target twists an ankle
- ice cream van going past: the targets veer off from the attack and go
and buy ice cream
- depress: the targets become too depressed to attack.
- sudden interest in botany: the targets stop and examine the plants
they are standing on. not so much use in urban environments.
there were more, but i think this illustrates some of the many options
open to designers of non-lethal weapons.
> ---- tom barclay wrote:
probably true. bear in mind that you might well have more sensor data
available - 360 degree optical and IR, telescopic optics, mm-wave radar,
and, possibly most useful, seismic/sonic sensors on hands and feet so
you cn listed through walls. plus a big computer to help you handle it: if you
just get sensory overload, that info is no use at all.
> 2. You lose human contact - more important than SA to a lot of cops.
well, you can always wrap the suit proper in something less threatening. a
Teletubby or Barney suit, perhaps? no, sorry, *less* threatening...
> I still think, even in the
definitely.
> It
in the uk, regular police don't carry a gun. the uk has a much lower crime
rate than the us. mind you, i think most european police are armed, and their
crime rates are lower than ours. oh well.
> ---- los wrote:
i was wondering about PA and doors. surely many doors are built for unpowered
civilians, and a copper in PA will have a hard time getting through the
doorway. of course, he may have less trouble going through the wall.
this has ramifications for the use of PA in ship-ship boarding, where
corridors will be quite small. in fact, a minimum-size corrdor (think
submarines) is quite an effective passive anti-PA defence ...
> tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
> i was wondering about PA and doors. surely many doors
Well, nowadays, here's the way most SWAT teams adress breaching a defended
site: They have this huge heavy thing called a body bunker. They're like three
feet wide, bulletrpoof, with a small armored glass slit for observation.
There's a pole along the back for a guy to grab. It's probably the size as a
full legionaire shield. There's a headlight on it for blinding perps. One
guy's sole job is to hold this thing, and with his spare hand he has his
pistol. So the team stacks up behind this guy outside the door. An aditional
officer or two have a battering ram that smashes the door off its frame or
hinges, then the body bunker goes through with everyone else behind it. There
is of course little or no concern shown for the door, doorframe or any
collateral property damage, (hope they have the right house!)
So for PA, as long as the guy can smash his way though the doorway then it's
honkey dory. (Don't ask what that means) However, you bring up a good point
that PA in space ships had better be light and manueverable so you can get
through a hatch.
My persdinnaly philosophy re: body armor throughout my military career has
always been I want speed and manueverablilty and comfort instead of perceived
invulnerability. I don't want to wear anything that will make me feel it's OK
to get shot. Most everyone else I've worked with has the same opinion. I don't
even like a helmet, (Which in SF, we call the dome of obediance.) Keep in mind
that nothing we have today, kpots or body armor, is "powered" so that means
you have to lug it around, and most of the countries I've operated in have
always been like 100 degrees by 8am. I've been luck, having only been wounded
twice in 20 years both times in the shin (in almost the same place too!) Once
shot and once with grenade fragments
> ---- jon/gzg wrote:
As I recall, the excubitores were well armored, and took the opinion that if
they could catch you, you were guilty.
The 'space ork, is available from GZG and Eureka here in Australia, only one
at the moment but once xenoc rules get accepted for SGII I'm sure we could
expand the range.
Nic
Eureka Miniatures
> rules At 03:07 PM 9/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
> ---- john shoemark wrote:
ah, but consider the effect of shouting this through a 10 000 watt ampifier
with the sound channelled into a 10 degree cone. it becomes more a case of
"STOP or I will reduce the rest of you to boiling jelly!"
tom.anderson@altavista.net spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> this has ramifications for the use of PA in ship-ship boarding,
Except, on anything other than scouts, it is unlikely.
It has been found that depriving humans of 'personal space' (amount
varies with culture - north americans need a lot) has all sorts of
stress and morale and discipline effects. On destroyers and attack subs, you
can get away with it for brief periods (weeks? a month or two?) because the
troops are select (submariners) (and its still a high stress job) or because
they can always go up on deck, get away from the others, get some air, feel
the wind, etc. Can't do that on a space ship. The analogy would be more like
US boomers than
attack subs - and they have whole jogging tracks around their vast
missile bays!. Deep space ships may need even more interior space. In
Traveller, I think they assumed 14m^3 per stateroom (you could do double
occupancy) plus other living spaces such as corridors, etc.
I don't think this would be the answer, although putting in 'choke points'
near the bridge, engineering, and the like seem like a possible defensive
option. But remember, PA (at least the
muscle/strength part - maybe with limited armour) (on any large
vessel) would be used by the damage control guys, engineers, med teams trying
to get to people, etc. It seems like corridors around key combat systems would
therefore have to accomodate PA so that *your* guys could get their PA their.
The benefits in search and rescue, damage repair, etc. are probably
significant, not to mention fire fighting.
Tom.
/************************************************
tom.anderson@altavista.net spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> well, you can always wrap the suit proper in something less
Those Teletubbies give me the screamin' heebie jeebies! Kids love em.... they
make me cringe. For some reason, I want to shout "Spawn of Satan!" when I see
one.... (guess I grew up with Mr.Dressup, Casey, Finnegan, The Friendly Giant,
Rusty, and Sesame Street).
As for Barney, alt.barney.purple.dinosaur.die.die.die said it all. Barney,
meet T. Rex.....
Tom.
/************************************************
> You wrote:
> were definite precursors to the Police of today. There may even be
The Urban Cohorts, Cohors Urbae IIRC, were a paramilitary watchman
organization responsible for maintaining law and order within Old Rome before
the Empire handed it over to the barbs.
> You wrote:
> i was thinking an american would. in particular, i would have thought
> You wrote:
> i was thinking an american would. in particular, i would have
Excubitores were military elements of Imperial Guard, but as I
mentioned, Byzantines did not have the same military/police split we
do, nor did they have Posse Commitatus.
We can also point to the Nika riots where two generals with their personal
bucellaroi killed approximately 5,000 people, with another 5,000 suffocated in
the crush to escape. Doesn't Narses rock? And as for Belisarius... For an SF
version of this incident check David Drake's Counting the Cost (included in
his new compilation Caught in the Crossfire).
> ---- john atkins wrote:
> Excubitores were military elements of Imperial Guard,
thank you john! i was almost ready to lose faith in you.
of course, it all depends on your definition of 'police'. i think peel's
innovation was more to do with putting detection and uniform together under
civil authority, but i'm not sure. all societies must have had some sort of
law enforcement; whether you call them police or not is a matter of semantics,
not history.