Overwatch, the next chapter...

2 posts ยท Jan 2 2001 to Jan 2 2001

From: Barclay, Tom <tomb@b...>

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:08:58 -0500

Subject: Overwatch, the next chapter...

Allan say:

> A unit (or detachment or single figure for that matter) may enter

Personally, I think 1 action isn't enough. I see what you're doing, but with
what you have later you run the risk of having a lot of fire pouring down for
what's essentially a single action.

[Tomb] It really is one fire action, especially if you don't allow
support weapons extra shots. Therefore penalizing a unit doubly is overharsh
IMO.

My own Overwatch rules allow the overwatching squads allow over watch at the
cost of 2 actions, though mine don't require a Reaction Test (that's what
Reaction Fire is for).

[Tomb] It is an easy test, I just dislike the fact that once a unit has
an area under surveillance, it ALWAYS fires first. I know from RL experiences
in paintball and other training, sometimes a surprise sally can catch your
prepared opponent napping. It isn't safe, but sometimes it is your only option
and sometimes it works... (Ideally, you just shouldn't walk into such fire
zones....)

<SNIP>

Worse, you're essentially making it HARDER to hit a target that moves slowly.
That is, if I move a unit 12" across your front, it's easier to hit than if I
move 1". A fast moving unit is easier to hit one sauntering along.

[Tomb] Yes! This was a rough cut from memory. I think I modified this to
be a penalty if you moved less than 25% of your total movement potential in
sight.

I think I know what you're getting at. I suggest a simpler method. Make it a
TL+1 test if the unit conducts a Combat Move! That is what Combat
Movement is supposed to be in SG2, a unit moving while hugging the ground. It
could be a quick unexpected dash for cover, or a ponderous move from
rock-to-rock.

[Tomb] My own preference for combat movement, that applies in all
situations: Combat moving troops (as opposed to normal "patrol" movement) are
fired at as if 1 RB further away. This makes combat moving a must while
engaged. Although I think your suggestion has merit here also.

> Optional add ons:

I don't like this. You're essentially allowing split fire, albeit with a
Reaction Test, for the cost of one action, not two. In fact, you are also
breaking the "can only fire once per activation" rule, even with the drop in
TL per new target.

[Tomb] Yep. That is why it is listed as an option. The SAW and GPMG are
meant to throw quite a bit of fire out. My interpretation of this is that, in
static positions, they can just churn out the rounds. In this case, I use the
declining firepower version, and have found it works. But, if you don't like
that part, ignore it!

You also need counters to indicate the number of Overwatch firings they have
done, so you can tell what the TL modifier is for the test.

[Tomb] ? Nope. I usually mentally keep track of how many shots fired
because it doesn't come up all that often. And it doesn't affect the test
level to fire (or I never thought of that....). The only reason to keep track
is if you use declining FP with repeated shots.

What about squads with multiple SAWs? Are all SAWs required to fire at the
same target? Or can they be put on Overwatch as a "split fire" unit and fire
independently? For that matter, can a SAW or other support weapon be put on
overwatch separate from the rest of the squad? I mean, they can fire separate
from the rest of the squad, why not go on Overwatch separately?

[Tomb] I suppose the answer is do you play the rules or the game? Do you
allow squads to split fire? I don't...usually. It isn't illegal, but my own
knowledge tells me this is a rare case. The SAW might be assigned a different
overwatch zone conceivably, but not all that often.

I personally think this shouldn't happen. I suspect you'll see a LOT more
suppressions with this, especially in squads with two or more support weapons.

[Tomb] Probably. Rarely do I bring that much FP to the table. Obviously
if you do this, you get suppressions through lots of support weapons. I get
mine through efficacy of fewer weapons. Combined, the effects could be
pronounced.

I think you'll see scenarios bog down and be less mobile than SG2 is right
now. That may be what you're after, though.

[Tomb] If you even use overwatch/snap fire, you don't mind more bogging.
I myself am a simulations gamer. I like elegant and easy to remember, but I
also like the feel of what I think of as real. I've seen section firings. I
don't EVER want to be downrange of one. Not without a concrete berm.

I think this should be more for an FMA game, where the scale is a bit
different.

[Tomb]Probably fits well there, along with the firelanes rules.

With turns representing 1 to several minutes in SG2, I think allowing multiple
fire from support weapons is too unbalancing.

[Tomb] Guess it depends on force compositions. I've used it in a number
of games fairly successfully. It changes the balance and does make support
weapons more fearsome, perhaps unjustly so. But then, I also tend to think the
SAW (as I think of it) as overrated with D10 FP. D6 seems more
appropriate. GPMGs/LMGs probably merit D10. Totally IMO, mind you.
Though others have tried SAWs with lower FP and had good results.

> 3) If you are particular, you may want to get a small counter with an

I would scrap this idea, too.

[Tomb] It is an option. Some people like enforcing unit facing. Some
people like to know where the unit is supposed to be watching. I don't use it
myself.

> 4) Involuntary triggering: Green or Untrained units, fatigued units,
People
> get jumpy if they are poorly trained or are tired.

How many times do they test, and when?

[Tomb] I'm thinking this will come up in the "prematurely sprung
ambush".

I'm assuming they test once per movement of a potentially triggering unit, but
when is it tested? The moment they first move, or some other point?

[Tomb] I'd say test when unit first enters LoS (assuming it is within RB
1-3). Maybe test each movement or fire action thereafter, after the move
or fire is conducted.

I would require the units test in the order of "target priority" given in the
rulebooks, if I used this at all. It has neat potential, but I'd make it a
part of ambush rules or scenario specific rules.

[Tomb] This is the primary place I'd expect it used. The other being
where a green unit is being attacked by unit A, but wants to shoot at
unactivated unit B when it activates. A is in their face and shooting at them.
It may take a good effort to not have them return fire at unit A and to hold
fire to shoot at unit B.

> Reaction Fire

Obviously I differ with your opinion here, as this is essentially my own
Reaction Fire rule, but I do it at a TL0 and don't require a TL test for
Overwatch.

[Tomb] I find TL0 to easy for a sudden engagement. But, this is a matter
of degree you are arguing...;)

Once again, I suggest an increase in TL if the target is using a combat move.

[Tomb] It was a good idea, so I shall probably steal it. ;)

> Whether this test is passed or failed, that unit is

I don't agree with this. I think that if they fail the test, they should not
be activated.

[Tomb] I don't recall what happened when you blew this reaction fire
roll in the rules Jon T posted to the net (conjectural though they were). Your
interpretation may be more homogenous.

Allan Goodall - agoodall@canada.com

From: Allan Goodall <agoodall@a...>

Date: 2 Jan 2001 15:01:33 -0800

Subject: Re: Overwatch, the next chapter...

> On Tue, 02 January 2001, "Barclay, Tom" wrote:

> Personally, I think 1 action isn't enough. I see what you're doing,

I've been thinking about this for a bit.

I see one potential problem with the way I handle it (by the way, in my first
cut on Overwatch rules, I did the same thing as you and made it one action but
it had to be the last action).

Technically you should be able to allow troops on a vehicle to go into
Overwatch. But, if they are travelling through an area of hidden counters,
they can't actually do a spot action! Hmmm...

Okay, so I got to thinking some more. If you make it one action, it's a little
too easy with my rules to allow them to fire automatically.

The end result is that you've swung me over. I'm changing my rules to require
a Reaction Test, but only one action.

> [Tomb] My own preference for combat movement, that applies in all
movement)
> are fired at as if 1 RB further away. This makes combat moving a must

I think I'll add a TL+1 to mine for targets doing combat movement.

> [Tomb] I suppose the answer is do you play the rules or the game? Do

Well, I allow squads to split fire because it is specifically allowed in the
rules. I don't have them with me, but there is a point where Jon says that a
squad may fire part of the squad with one fire action and part with another.

So, personally, I think your rules should address this, even if it's just a
"don't let squads split fire in Overwatch" rule.

> [Tomb] Probably. Rarely do I bring that much FP to the table.
Obviously if
> you do this, you get suppressions through lots of support weapons. I

Of course, it might not be THAT bad since I'm also moving more towards
fireteams than full "squads". So instead of 8 guys with 2 SAWs amongst them,
there would be two fireteams of 4 guys and one SAW.

> [Tomb] Guess it depends on force compositions. I've used it in a
Though
> others have tried SAWs with lower FP and had good results.

I wonder if it's a case where the higher FP takes into account things like
covering fire over a long period of time. Maybe you need to drop the FP of the
SAWs but only during Overwatch, to account for the fact that they can fire
multiple times while on Overwatch.

> [Tomb] It is an option. Some people like enforcing unit facing. Some

I use it for my ACW rules, but don't during modern games.

> [Tomb] I'm thinking this will come up in the "prematurely sprung

Which reminds me, how long does an Overwatch counter last? Until the next
activation of the unit? Are they all removed at the end of a turn?

> [Tomb] This is the primary place I'd expect it used. The other being

Technically, that's against the target priority rules in the rulebook,
depending of course on the range to the two units. The target priority rules
would have the unit fire at unit A anyway.

> [Tomb] I find TL0 to easy for a sudden engagement. But, this is a

And, as mentioned WAY up above, I've changed my mind. *L*

> [Tomb] It was a good idea, so I shall probably steal it. ;)

Why not, I'm stealing from you!