Following a discussion:
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:56:51 -0400
From: Jon Davis <davis@albany.net>
Subject: Re: FMA skirmish questions
> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
I can agree with this and it will only add one chit to the mix. On a 'botch'
attack roll, (either a double 1 or a 1 on the quality die), the character has
emptied a magazine and must use an action to reload the weapon. An 'Empty' or
'Reloading' chit can be placed next to the character to indicate that he or
she must use a Reload action before resuming fire.
Therefore, a veteran trooper will be automatically reloading while in combat
as a second nature. The green trooper may use too much firepower and will have
to pause to reload.
** Well, here's my point. I've seen this mechanic used in other games. I've
seen good troops run out of ammo due to some poor luck whereas the incompetent
quality troops with good luck blaze away endlessly from the NeverEmpty(tm)
ammo hoppers. I know there is variability in
firefights (you do run dry - happens in paintball) but there are
things to prevent it too. In RL you can check your mag before enterring the
fight, or reload every time you get low in a mag and there is a brief lull.
That is to say, their are PREEMPTIVE actions you can take to prevent running
out of ammo. In this case, if you use the Necromunda style mechanic, very
little can be done ahead of time to prevent it. One example I can imagine is
an elite trooper who is engaged in a firefight and runs out of ammo in his
first fire action! Meanwhile his happless green opponenet blazes away through
many turns of fire. It can and does happen with the random system. No
'forethought' or 'care' on behalf of the player can prevent this, even if the
mini in question has been hunkered down in cover doing nothing for a while....
presumably giving him plenty of time to check his mag.
If you want to keep it to a die roll, there are maybe ways to do that.
Alternately, you should make some alternate rules available for ammo tracking.
It won't hurt anyone to have them (those that don't want to use them, and
there are a fair few) won't. Those that like them, will.
How about: Firefights being the unpredictable things they are, sometimes you
consume more ammo than expected. Each time you fire, you are rolling your
quality and FP die, and if you roll double ones, you need to change mags after
that shot. However, some troops will have time to check their ammo status
ahead of time. If you've spent an action checking your ammo loadout, then that
unit will automatically avoid the next such 'out of ammo' condition. This can
be tracked on paper, with a bead, with a chit, or just in your head. This
means you could constantly be "in ammo" if every time you rolled a botch, you
(before rolling another) checked your ammo.
Just a thought.
> How about:
Working along the "elimination of record keeping and keeping it simple" lines,
how about saying we use a Necromunda style roll (you roll snake eyes, you're
out of ammo), but Veteran and Elite troops are immune to this because they are
experienced enough to know better.
That keeps it recordless, chitless, and so on, while eliminating the situation
of a spec ops trooper accidentally running out of ammo.
> Working along the "elimination of record keeping and keeping it simple"
No, no.... Because of the very die types they roll, Veteran and Elite troops
will have a much smaller chance to have this happen, but should not
be immune to it. I like the double one's "out of ammo" roll, but
don't make anyone exclusive of it.
Actually this whole out of ammo has a beauty in its own. Inexperienced
troops will more likely roll 1's than experienced ones AND firing at longer
ranges will more likely result in an out of ammo roll. This is an incentive to
hold your fire until you get a more effective shot.
> On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Adrian Johnson wrote:
> >How about:
I've not played with the rules, but I didn't find a mechanic for weapons
'jamming'. So this 'out of ammo' rule could be renamed 'weapon
malfunction' - the trooper is either out of ammo, has a round jammed in
the barrel, or has had the firing pin scoot past his ear and into the
brush. Such circumstances could happen to any trooper - but will depend
greatly on the reliability of a weapon. I would suggest that should a 'botch'
occur, a further die should be rolled dependant on the weapon to determine
whether the barrel has been fouled or whatever. If you wish, this die could be
stepped up or down dependant on the troop quality (an elite trooper maintains
his weapons better).
If this doesn't make sense take the following examples.
Untrained civilian who happens to have picked up a carbine from somewhere...
fires it and gets good ol' double one. Lets say that the carbine has a
reliability code of d8, but this is modified to a d6 for the inexperience of
our 'marksman'. This rolls comes up a one, and the hapless civilian discovers
that resting the gun barrel down into the mud was not a good idea!
This also allows scope for optional rules on weapons that may cause damage to
the firer in malfunctioning. (Our civilian could easily have caused himself an
injury by blocking his barrel) Or even for the 'secret weapon'
scenarios with an amazing weapon that has a reliability of d4-1.
just my 2 bits.
> Untrained civilian who happens to have picked up a carbine from
Shoot (no pun intended) that's easy. Just make a task check to "fix"
the
weapon. No use adding a new stat to all the weapons.
> Untrained civilian who happens to have picked up a carbine from
the
> weapon. No use adding a new stat to all the weapons.
That makes sense - and the fact that untrained troops use a d4 or d6
ensures that there is a built in extra difficulty for them to
unjam/repair/reload/etc the weapon.
So - we're up to double one's on the shooting rolls produces a stoppage
of some kind. It could be unintentional out of ammo, it could be a jam, it
could be another kind of malfunction. To resolve this, the character must take
a task check as per normal, and requires one action.
No one is immune to these effects, but better troops are a) less likely to
suffer from it in the first place, and b) more likely to resolve the
situation immediately if it does occur - and these differences are
inherently built into the system. No extra mechanic required.
This keeps things simple, requires no extra record keeping. Maybe a
"jam"
chit or equiv. placed by the figure until it is cleared. And adds the
potential for the "unknown" or "surprise".
I know Tom doesn't like the idea of the randomness involved in running out of
ammo by mistake, but if we say that this mechanism doesn't just involve
running out of ammo in the current magazine, but also potential jams and other
malfunctions (which are indeed more surprising, if not random events)
- maybe this will be less disturbing.
Thoughts, anyone?
> In a message dated 7/13/99 11:34:42 AM EST, jerrym@cvzoom.net writes:
<<
Shoot (no pun intended) that's easy. Just make a task check to "fix" the
weapon. No use adding a new stat to all the weapons.
J >>
If you add too many it becomes clear as "mud". (Pun intended, I never make
accidental ones)
> That makes sense - and the fact that untrained troops use a d4 or d6
Yeah...I love it. Now to play test it......
> In a message dated 7/13/99 10:42:11 AM EST, ajohnson@idirect.com writes:
<<
That keeps it recordless, chitless, and so on, while eliminating the situation
of a spec ops trooper accidentally running out of ammo.
> [quoted text omitted]
I don't want to pop anyone's bubble but special ops troopers DO run out of
ammo in prlonged firefights. That's because eventually you always shoot
yourself dry, if you have to keep on shooting. So some kind of carrying
capacity is going to come into question in some circumstances
> I don't want to pop anyone's bubble but special ops troopers DO run out
> yourself dry, if you have to keep on shooting. So some kind of carrying
> capacity is going to come into question in some circumstances
Oh sure - I don't think we have the idea that somehow spec ops guys are
invincible, never run out of ammo, etc etc. I think we were referring to the
idea that troops might run out of ammo in their existing magazine in the
middle of an action by mistake, because they forgot to count their shots or
check the magazine before the fight started or whatever. Not that they have
run out of ammo all together, but that they have none in their gun RIGHT NOW.
There isn't a mechanic built into the system for reloading, or for tracking
ammo for basic weapons like an assault rifle. What we're trying to do here is
account for the situation where you run out of ammo in your rifle and suddenly
have to change mags when you are stuck in the middle of a fight and didn't
plan on it.
If we are talking about weapons that use 4mm caseless rounds (with, I'm sure,
much higher energy explosive propellant than current ammo) or binary
propellant, liquid propellant or whatever - all potential firearms
developments - then we are talking about the average trooper being able
to carry a lot more ammo than they do now. A Canadian Forces trooper now will
get a combat load of 150 rounds for his C7 rifle. Maybe more, depending on
the circumstances - but rarely more than a couple of hundred (though the
Airborne guys who deployed into Somalia, who didn't know what their resupply
situation would be, were carrying closer to 700 rounds each). He is expecting
to be resupplied on a regular basis, but entering a fight, he's not going to
have ready more than that. One of the GZGverse troopers could easily be
entering a fight with a thousand rounds of rifle ammo or
more - at the same weight. For simplicity sake, when talking about
basic
weapons I think we shouldn't incorporate an "out of ammo all together -
you
have NONE left" mechanic - except, perhaps, as a special scenario type
rule.
But accounting for accidentally running out in the current magazine - or
perhaps jamming or other stoppages - adds a greater degree of realism
without seriously encumbering the system.
> At 02:35 PM 13/07/99 -0400, you wrote:
To respond to myself - I meant to add that:
Special ops' guys would be less likely to run out of ammo in their current
magazine by mistake - they would be more likely, given their extra
training, experience, ability, etc, to keep more clear track of what was going
on in a fight, and be aware of things like ammo remaining. A total newbie in
his first fight is much more likely to burn through ammo fast and not keep
track of what is in his weapon at the moment.
In the end, we suggested that veteran and elite troops should NOT be immune
to the effects of the snake-eyes roll ammo outage as I suggested. They
are far less likely to suffer from it and will be faster recovering from it
simply by virtue of the fact that they are better - and this is built
into the system.
I think this should be left to house rules. 90% of the time, the soldiers in a
battle are not going to run out of ammo. If, for the sake of the scenario, the
players agree that sucha limitation is needed, then that is fine, but there's
no need to bog down the majority of the players because of a minority event...
God bless,
- Buddy
---------------------------------------------
Get paid for surfing the Web! (I'm dead serious!) www.alladvantage.com
Referral #: BXL-474
> In a message dated 7/13/99 1:39:39 PM EST, ajohnson@idirect.com writes:
<<
But accounting for accidentally running out in the current magazine -
or
perhaps jamming or other stoppages - adds a greater degree of realism
without seriously encumbering the system.
> [quoted text omitted]
Absolutely - but in a prolonged fight (if you're trying to get the
flavor of guys pinned down and counting their rounds) you will have to track
total ammo expenditure some way or other
A basic ammo load out for a grunt climbing out of the back of a Bradley is
nine 30 round magazines of ammo for his M 16 - one in the weapon, two
each in four offsetting ammo pouches on his ALICE gear. In the M 16 there is a
three round autoburst. This means ninety trigger pulls and you are DRY!
There's more ammo in the track, but where is the track? Soldiers do NOT fight
with
unlimited amounts of ammo. Firefights are usually brief - but not
ALWAYS. Something to think about
Actually the LBE pouches hold 3 mags each. The LBV (Load bearing vest, holds 2
mags per pocket, but anyone who doesn't have their head up their ass still
attaches the pistol belt and ammo pouches to the vest which DOUBLES your mag
capacity to almost 20.
Los
> ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> A basic ammo load out for a grunt climbing out of the back of a
There's
> more ammo in the track, but where is the track? Soldiers do NOT fight
> Actually the LBE pouches hold 3 mags each. The LBV (Load bearing vest,
We typically carry 12-15 mags at a minimum, because you do use it up
quite quickly.
> That makes sense - and the fact that untrained troops use a d4 or d6
This seems like a workable solution to me. Vague enought to cover several
potential mishaps, yet allowing for all of them.