And the esteemed Jerry spoke....
From: "Jerry" <jerrym@cvzoom.net>
Subject: Re: Out of Ammo in FMA
Actually this whole out of ammo has a beauty in its own. Inexperienced troops
will more likely roll 1's than experienced ones AND firing at longer ranges
will more likely result in an out of ammo roll.
** This last eludes me. Wherein does range act in the equation? I thought we
were speaking of a quality die and a firepower die. Double ones is out of ammo
(though I liked the idea of a one die roll subsequent to that based on weapon
reliablity or troop quality).
** I do agree even elites can run out of ammo though.
** Here's another cut: If you get double ones, you are 'out of ammo'. This may
be remedied by a 1 action reload, or by a zero action "emergency load" which
can be botched. In this case, roll a reaction test to reload. If the unit
succeeds, they reload and it doesn't consume an action. If they fail, they
kill off an action, and still have to reload (consuming their second action if
they want to do it then). This would allow high quality troops to reload "on
the fly" while lower quality troops frequently hesitated, fumbled with the
mag, etc. Thoughts?
** As for jamming, I have spent plenty of time both on the range and playing
with dirty military long arms that aren't cleaned by clowns who put them away
dirty... and I've found real "stop you dead" jams such as a broken firing pin,
a burst casing, a real ejector problem, or some such serious stoppage to be
somewhat rare. Occaisionally, the weapons will misfire or misfeed, but most of
the time, recocking is all that is required to clear the weapon. That is so
fast it wouldn't be represented even within the context of FMA. It is an
ingrained immediate action drill.
** Having said that, if you combined my above idea with Adrian's and said
"During Fire Combat, anytime a fire action results in a roll of 1 on both the
quality and the firepower dice of the firer, something has happened. An "Out
of Action" chit is placed by the weapon bearer representing either a temporary
stoppage, a jam, or merely an unexpected out of ammo result.
There are two ways to remove the Out-of-Action chit. One is an
Immediate Action response. This involves trying to rapidly clear the jam or
reload the weapon. This could result in more serious problems, or it could get
the user back locked and cocked asap. To try this,
before his next action, the figure rolls a reaction test +1 (+1 extra
level of difficulty if suppressed). If the figure suceeds, the jam or stoppage
is cleared, the weapon reloaded, or whatever, and the player may take his next
action unhindered. If the figure fails, his next action is forefeit and he
must spend an action subsequently to reload or clear the jam. If the figure
spends an action to Ready Weapon (instead of an immediate action response or
as a result of a blown
IA), the figure rolls a reaction test +0 (+1 extra level if suppresed)
to clear the weapon because he is taking his time. Failure here means further
actions must be spent trying to unjam the weapon until it succeeds or a
catastrophe results.
Catastrophe results from rolling a 1 on either of the above reaction tests
(the Immediate Action or the Ready Weapon action), it turns out that the
stoppage or jam is serious and the weapon is out of action until a weapon tech
gets a chance to fix it. It will no longer fire."
This should cover the whole 9 yards with a simple rule and in such a way as to
penalize poor troops far worse than experts, but even the pros can have an off
day.
As for overall ammo: Assume your rounds are 4mm slivers with no casing weight
to waste. You can probably carry
4-8x as many of these as the modern soldier. That means if you modern
joe would carry 120-180 rounds, you'd carry up to 1250 or so rounds.
You shouldn't run out (even with a 5 round burst) anytime in the time scale of
the average FMA game.
If you do encounter a limited ammo scenario, or one where each player
has but one mag (a fun scenario - do you take the long range shot, or
close for the money shot? You only have five fire actions worth of ammo... and
there are three or four other players out there in the
same boat...) - these can be covered in the scenario. As a rule, you
should have ammo. You just might (much as it chafes me to say it) run out of
it suddenly... (not so bad if you include stoppages, jams, hang
fires, etc - even in 2185 guns will get dirty...).
Shotguns:
Ken, you made some interesting assertions about shotguns. I won't disagree
that at closer ranges, spread is not much of a factor (the shot tends to hit
the same target). Mind you, I'd sure like to see the data you use to support
your idea (if you have some in particular
sources which you could quote - I have a gut feeling you are right
under some constraints but I'd like to see hard data). I also bet that most of
your data (if it comes from Law Enforcement sources) would
feature a .12ga semi-auto or pump firing 00 buck. If you fired smaller
shot, the spread might be increased. If I'm not mistaken, most combat shotguns
will be modified choke. A Full choke double barrelled or sawed off shotgun
surely has spread even firing 00 buck, and an autoshotgun will have one heck
of a lot of spread. Heck, that was the POINT of the sawed off shotgun, so I
think you do sort of have to model spread effects. At medium and longer ranges
even with a modified choke, the spread could be noticeable. Now in support of
your point, many games have made shotgun spread a menace out of reasonable
proportion. But you need it for gangers and even for other shotguns at range.
Ryan Fisk made a good argument of more or less what I said here, although he
didn't mention an additional round of some significance to shotguns:
Flechette. Military shotguns firing flechette have (with relative ease) (or so
I recall) torn to fragments most modern ballistic cloth body armour. The sharp
flechette has better ranged characteristics than the shot and will sliver its
way through much armour. A truly nasty round. Well worth installation in
military combat shotguns. I don't know if you can fire it from an autoshotgun
though. I hope not, or whoever is in front of the atchison, SPAS or H&K when
it cuts loose on full auto with flechette is gonna look like hamburger.
The Firepower die in skirmish drops off over each range band. So for a
regular firing a rifle, at short range you roll d8+d10, medium d8+d8,
longe
d8+d6. This increases the odds of 1s.
'Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
Commodore Alfred K Hole - RNS Indy's Folly [CB]
Captain Nicolette O'Teen - RNMS Golden Spear [CB]
EBD Medusa
> -----Original Message-----
> Actually this whole out of ammo has a beauty in its own.
> ones AND firing at longer ranges will more likely result in an
> ** This last eludes me. Wherein does range act in the equation? I
> And the esteemed Jerry spoke....
As the range increases on a weapon, the firepower die shifts down, therefore
increasing the chance if a "jam" (so to speak).
> On 14-Jul-99 at 00:11, Thomas Barclay (Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca) wrote:
> Shotguns:
I believe (I'd have to go back and check out my grandfathers NRA mags) that
smaller shot does not get you increased spread, just better coverage in the
area covered by the spread. BTW 00 is for deer, not people. The coverage on 00
is kind of splotchy because there are so few pellets. Use 0 or even better, 1
for home defense.:)
> Roger Books wrote:
...Snip...JTL
> Roger Books (Who hates shotguns, put a rifle in my hand and I nail my
I suggest that you stand closer to the barn. Shotguns don't
do much beyond 50 yards.
:-)
Bye for now,
In a message dated 7/14/99 9:29:13 AM EST, john_t_leary@pronetusa.net
writes:
<< > Roger Books (Who hates shotguns, put a rifle in my hand and I nail my
> target, give me a shotgun and I can't hit the side of a
I suggest that you stand closer to the barn. Shotguns don't
do much beyond 50 yards.
> [quoted text omitted]
A hundred yards for larger buck shot and a cylinder choke is pretty realistic.
That's why they put rifle sights on a combat shotgun. In WWI a long barreled
Remington shotgun waith a bayonet lug was issued to specialist troops called a
"trench gun". Ugly close in weapon!. Today we have the CAW a full auto twelve
gauge with a 20 round magazine. That's clear a large room with little effort.
For close in urban assaulots I'll take the shotgun over a machine pistol any
day.
In a message dated 7/14/99 8:09:02 AM EST, books@mail.state.fl.us
writes:
<<
I believe (I'd have to go back and check out my grandfathers NRA mags) that
smaller shot does not get you increased spread, just better coverage in the
area covered by the spread. BTW 00 is for deer, not people. The coverage on 00
is kind of splotchy because there are so few pellets. Use 0 or even better, 1
for home defense.:)
> [quoted text omitted]
I knew a Vietnam Vet who carried a "room broom" 12 gauge for a back up
weapon. He hand loaded a (roughly 1/3" diameter ball bearing on top of
as many BB's as he could pack in the shot space. My only thought was that he
must really like working in close!
now, i'm not an SG guy, and not much of a DSer, so my FMA use is minimal, but
here's my say anyway.
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> ** Here's another cut:
i think this is probably my favourite.
however, i don't see why a failed quick reload should forfeit an action. in
realism terms, if the quick load is pulling a lever, ramming in a mag and
pulling another lever, then a failed attempt ("oops! that's not a mag, that's
my radio!") should take no longer. in game terms, i'm guessing it's to
dissuade people from always trying a quick reload, knowing that if it
fails they can always just spend one action later - Tom B's way, a
failed quick reload essentially takes two actions. i would say that the
possibility of jamming the gun on a botched quick reload would be enough.
> ** Having said that, if you combined my above idea with Adrian's and
i think this is a bit harsh - requiring a test every time you roll snake
eyes is going too far. and as for a botch on the reload breaking the gun
altogether, that's just cruel.
my suggestion (as if we need another) would be:
- double 1 -> empty!
- quick reload
-- no action
-- take a test
-- botch jams the gun
- slow reload
-- one action
-- no test
- unjam
-- one action
-- test needed
-- botch breaks the gun?
-- gun is unloaded once unjammed?
there is the question of modifiers for the checks. i would put a quick
load at +0 or +1, and an unjam at +1. however, i would say that for
every
failed unjam attempt, the modifier goes up by one - the soldier is
getting more and more wound up, or has accidentally made the problem worse, or
the problem is turning out to be more and more serious. this is a bit harsh,
but it's dramatic.
tom
Or if that fails, stand inside the barn & close the doors. ;-)
'Neath Southern Skies - http://users.mcmedia.com.au/~denian/
Commodore Alfred K Hole - RNS Indy's Folly [CB]
Captain Nicolette O'Teen - RNMS Golden Spear [CB]
EBD Medusa
> -----Original Message-----
Howdy!
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> ** As for jamming, I have spent plenty of time both on the range and
Most of the problems I have faced on the range with police or civilians is the
ammo. LOTS of problems with police loads. Usually duds or "smokestacks". Never
had the misffortune of a real "stop you dead"
jam....so far.
> > ** Having said that, if you combined my above idea with Adrian's and
Some permutation of that idea is cool. The only problem is that the firepower
directly influences the chance to go "out of action". You may just want to
simplify it by saying "if you roll a 1 on the quality die, roll your quality
die again to the side; if another 1 is rolled, then something has happened".
This way, the event is dependent on solely the quality of the firer. OR, you
could have some sort of special scenario threshold, much like the motivation
levels in SGII. If you are playing a
gang, your chance to "malfunction" should be higher than a spec-ops
unit.
> Ken, you made some interesting assertions about shotguns. I won't
Some of the better references on shotgun ballistics and wounding;
R. M. Wilhelm General Considerations of Firearms Identification and Ballistics
W.U. Spitz Gunshot Trauma
R. S. Fisher Shotgun Wounds
A. Lester Medical evidence in fatal gunshot injuries (Am J. Clin Path 23)
R. Breitenecker Shotgun Wound Patterns (Am J. Clin Path 52)
Breitenecker and Senior Shotgun Wound Patterns: An Experimental Study (J For
Sciences 12)
J. B. Coates Wound Ballistics
P. F. Guerin Shotgun Wounds (J. For Sciences 5)
K. Winland, A. Ross, M. Groh, M. Iscan, and J.H. Davis Projectile Trauma
(Florida Scientist 55)
The above focus mostly on shotgun ballistics or wounding. Knight's book
(Forensic Pathology) is good, but the shotgun section is
adequate, at best. The last reference is so-so, but since I was senior
author, I just had to cite it.:)
> I also bet that
Yes, at long ranges a sawed-off with small shot will have a
wider spread, but its wounding potential is pathetic. Most of forensic
(military and civilian) modeling is done with 00 buck, as this offers some of
the best wounding potential. I have dealt with about 30 or so shotgun cases
since 1989, and almost all were 00 or close. I have had experience with
several people shot with birdshot or 06 buck, but as they did not die, they
didn't end up on my table.
> > Ryan Fisk made a good argument of more or less what I said here,
Flechette has been problematic, and I don't believe any military or law
enforcement agnecy has been issued them. I know some law enforcement aganecies
have been playing around with a sabot shell for
shotguns. Sort of an anti-vehicular thang.... :)
Ken
Greetings!
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Roger Books wrote:
> I believe (I'd have to go back and check out my grandfathers NRA mags)
The
> coverage on 00 is kind of splotchy because there are so few pellets.
Use
> 0 or even better, 1 for home defense. :)
The police I worked with didn't use OO for hunting....deer, that is.:) But,
yes, in theory, I think you are correct.
> Roger Books (Who hates shotguns, put a rifle in my hand and I nail my
I think I am a card-carrying member of that club. I have never
been able to hit anything with a Remington or Ithaca myself.
Ken
Howdy!
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> I knew a Vietnam Vet who carried a "room broom" 12 gauge for a back up
> weapon. He hand loaded a (roughly 1/3" diameter ball bearing on top
My uncle carried a shotgun in Vietnam as well (as a primary weapon). He got if
from some Aussies.
Ken
In a message dated 7/14/99 8:34:48 PM Central Daylight Time,
> kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca writes:
<<
My uncle carried a shotgun in Vietnam as well (as a primary weapon). He got if
from some Aussies.
Ken
> [quoted text omitted]
The squad "Thump-gunner" (M-79 single shot breech loading 40mm grenade
launcher) often carried a 12 gauge pump This was because the M 79 was a truly
awful self-defense weapon and the shotgun was far preferred over the .45
auto pistol.
Greetings!
> On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> The squad "Thump-gunner" (M-79 single shot breech loading 40mm grenade
> launcher) often carried a 12 gauge pump This was because the M 79 was
They endd up making a cannister round for the M-79/M-203, but it
has about the same effectiveness as a 12 ga. 00 shell (or so I've heard from a
bunch of Class 10 dealers who've played with it).
Ken
> Kenneth Winland wrote:
> I think I am a card-carrying member of that club. I have
I shoot trap on a local league, and so far I've got three 25 straights (the
highest score you can get per round) this year. I know people how shoot
competitively and can get a 100 straight without even thinking about it.
However, it is not a easy skill to acquire. I'm still considered a novice.
Most of my scores range in the twenties; with the exception of last weekend
where a shot an abysmal 18.
Shooting a small, moving target (either clay pigeons or game birds) with a
shotgun isn't as easy as it may seem. The projectiles are traveling at a
relatively slow speed (relative to a rifle bullet) and therefore you must give
the target a little bit of a lead. The lead depends greatly on the direction
the bird is traveling and where you stand in relation to it.
If you REALLY want to humiliate yourself with a shotgun, try a round of skeet
or sporting clays. At certain times in those events, you don't have just one
bird to worry about, but two at once!
> Kenneth Winland wrote:
That's why full-auto shotguns (flechette rounds) will be popular with
people like Templar marines. No range to speak of, but when you're working
your way through a Kra'Vak ship, who needs range? The Alarishi, however, feel
that a fusion gun is still the way to go. Over-engineering, no doubt.
On 14-Jul-99 at 21:19, Robertson, Brendan (Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au)
wrote:
> Or if that fails, stand inside the barn & close the doors. ;-)
Maybe I'd do better with an auto shotgun...
Really, a hickory tree full of 'tree rats' and a 20 gauge. After 8 shots I
gave up and went back for the.22, worked better anyway, I hate picking out
shot (it tends to penetrate the intestines and smells bad), head shots with
the rifle. Less mess. I'm still a little amazed that when the rifle went to
the shoulder it was on, and I could track the beasts. No mean feat at 20 M
with a 6X scope.
In a message dated 7/14/99 10:36:47 PM EST, kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca
writes:
<<
They endd up making a cannister round for the M-79/M-203, but it
has about the same effectiveness as a 12 ga. 00 shell (or so I've heard from a
bunch of Class 10 dealers who've played with it).
> [quoted text omitted]
Spread was pretty dreadful and the grenadier only carried a couple ropund. The
big advantage to the pump was you could fire six or seven times before
reloading. The M-79 was SINGLE shot
Howdy!
> On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Mark A. Siefert wrote:
> If you REALLY want to humiliate yourself with a shotgun, try a
Almost all of my shotgun experience is skeet shooting.... hence my ineptitude.
:)
Ken