Here's a little bit of data collection I did on the FB. It should provide some
insight into the naval forces of the Minor Powers.
Ships listed as sold/transferred to another power
Class Number Scoutship 133 Corvette 55 Frigate 98 Destroyer 72 Super Destroyer
13 Missile Destroyer 2 Light Cruiser 39 Escort Cruiser 22 Heavy Cruiser 33
Battlecruiser 24 Battleship 13 Battledreadnought 8 Light Carrier 6 Heavy
Carrier 1
These totals are for all of the Major Powers (NAC, ESU, NSL,
FSE).
Classes not listed (no ships transferred): Heavy Frigate, Superdreadnought.
This is a lot of ships. It doesn't include the UN (size unknown), or native
construction. The OU seems to be the leader in native design & construction,
but maybe that's because we haven't focussed on many other
groups yet. The ESU is the largest exporter of naval vessels. The single
CVA listed above is an ESU Konstantin-class Attack Carrier. I wonder
who it was sold to. If anyone is interested, I can give a breakdown by class,
number and supplier.
As for a map of Terra circa 2185, I can't find the appropriate world map
yet, but here's a rundown by control of present-day nations:
NAC: North & South America (see FCT), British Isles (status of Eire unknown),
Japan (nominal) ESU: China, Russia, India, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Korea
FSE: France, Spain, Italy NSL: Germany, Austria
PAU: Sub-Saharan Africa, Madagascar
FCT: Texas, California IR: Mediterranean Africa, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria,
Iraq, Yemen, Oman, various states IC: Indonesia, Philippines, Maylasia,
Indochina, various islands OU: Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea,
various islands RH: Byelorussia, Ukraine
There are a few implied but unconfirmed listings. Are Afghanistan, Pakistan &
Iran in the IR? Are Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria & the Balkans in the NSL? What
about Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia? Postulated: The Scandinavian Federation
(SF): Norway, Sweden, Finland. Others that remain unaccounted for: Iceland,
Turkey, Greece, Portugal, others I've missed?
> You wrote:
> NAC: North & South America (see FCT), British Isles (status of
Just North and Central America. South America is League of Latin American
Republics.
> ESU: China, Russia, India, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Korea
Assumed:SE Asia
> FSE: France, Spain, Italy
I assume: Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium, Luxembourg
> NSL: Germany, Austria
Assume:Lichtenstein.
> IR: Mediterranean Africa, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq,
Assume: Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey.
> RH: Byelorussia, Ukraine
IIRC, also have some bits of the Balkans and south-eastern Europe
> the NSL? What about Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia? Postulated: The
Good question. Historic ties to Poland and Germany, some of them used to speak
Swedish. I can see them as ESU, NSL, or even Scandanavian Fed.
> Scandinavian Federation (SF): Norway, Sweden, Finland.
Danes & Iceland
> > NAC: North & South America (see FCT), British Isles (status of
Nope. The NAC conquered South America. LLAR are entirely off world.
John Atkinson wrote in reply to Noah Doyle:
> > NAC: North & South America (see FCT), British Isles (status of
No, the LLAR lost *all* its Earth territories to the NAC in 2098 and don't
seem to have regained them so far.
> > ESU: China, Russia, India, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Korea
SE Asia is controlled by the Indonesian Commonwealth (conquered Malaysia
in 2039, Burma and Thailand in 2053 and the rest of Indo-China in 2054;
there is no mention in the FT2, MT or DS2 books about them losing any
territory on Earth).
> > FSE: France, Spain, Italy
Basically everything in the EC that doesn't go to the NSL, except the
Netherlands. Not sure where the northern (Flemish) parts of Belgiom would
end up, though - they may have jioined the Dutch instead since they
don't
seem to like their French(-ish) speaking southern countrymen much :-/
> > NSL: Germany, Austria
Unless it kept its independence along with Switzerland, of course.
Hungary probably belongs to the NSL - all the Eastern European states
except those of the RH seems to have been in the NSL from 2101 to 2124, and
only Poland and "Czechoslovakia" (FT2 was published prior to the split...)
left it to join the ESU. I'm a bit surprised that those states
left the NSL, though - I'd rather have expected Bulgaria and Romania to
do that.
> > RH: Byelorussia, Ukraine
Not according to the timelines, no... but then I'm assuming that the Eastern
European states carry out their current intention to join the EC.
> > What about Latvia, Lithuania & Estonia? Postulated: The
> to speak Swedish. I can see them as ESU, NSL, or even Scandanavian
None of which is correct :-/ They're listed as having formed the Romanov
Hegemony together with the Ukraine and Buelorussia (FT2 timeline, 2047 entry).
Later,
[FSE vs NAC for Portugal]
> I would not assume Portugal. Portugal has traditionally been allied
The Portugal and Britain thing isn't much in evidence these days. Portugal
would almost certainly stay in the EC if Britain left. So we can leave them in
the EC until circa 2100 when the
NSL/FSE/Netherlands split occurs. What they do then is anyone's
guess. I'd favour them staying in the FSE, with going it alone the next
choice. Joining the NAC is unlikely.
> (Heck the Japanese are there)
The Japanese aren't really in the NAC. They're allies and the NAC and
pre-NAC states did help maintain Japanese independence against IC
and/or ESU aggression so the alliance is probably fairly strong but
can you see the Japanese following the British crown? Unless the two royal
lines were joined in marriage, now there's an idea....
> You should throw in Hungary, Slovakia and maybe even the Check
Hungary, Czech and Slovak republics are definitely part of the original NSL.
I've already said that I'm against Poland and some of these others leaving to
join the ESU, so my map shows them all as NSL.
My big questions are:
1. Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, all the bits from Yugoslavia. These could be
RH, FSE, NSL or even IF for some of the more southerly ones.
2. Where exactly are the IF/PAU and IF/ESU borders? And how fluid are
they? I'm assuming that the borders won't follow modern national lines but
would follow the areas with predominatly Muslim population.
3. Is Taiwan still independent?
4. The Carribean. I guess most of it is NAC, but is all of it?
5. Antarctica. Fun and games in the snow.
Steve Pugh:
> 4. The Carribean. I guess most of it is NAC, but is all of it?
Some of the islands are French possessions, right? So, unless they were sold
off or taken, the FSE has some posessions down there.
Thomas Barclay:
> And if Lichtenstein stays independent, it will still be the corporate
Maybe it could be a major home for mercenary bonding authorities? Make a
condition of being issued a bond giving Lichtenstein the right to hire the
merc unit first, and suddenly they've got a supply of trained troops who want
to see them independent.
Oerjan spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> > > NSL: Germany, Austria
And if Lichtenstein stays independent, it will still be the corporate Meca it
is today (like Grand Cayman and Switzerland). I'm betting an independent
Lichtenstein would be very powerful as Earth based HQ of many a megacorp, AND
it would have a lot of high tech corporate security to keep it 'buttoned
down'.
Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
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**************************************************/
> John Atkinson wrote:
> You wrote:
I would not assume Portugal. Portugal has traditionally been allied to England
(well at least for the past 400 years) and had little do politically with
Spain or France (Until the EC thing). The Portuguese consider tehmselves
seperate from Spain, (And get pissed off when they
are mixed up with them) and are have differnt racial/cultural
backgrounds to some extent.(Lusitatnian tribes mixed heavily with Celtic
before the Moors came in) They should go into the NAC since wherever Britain
has ever gone, Portugal has followed. (Heck the Japanese are there)
> > NSL: Germany, Austria
You should throw in Hungary, Slovakia and maybe even the Check republic. Make
the NSL a true central European power. Seeing that there's been little
guidance here I've already chucked at least Slovakia in with the
NSL in my stories/games.
Robert spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Thomas Barclay:
> > independent Lichtenstein would be very powerful as Earth based HQ of
> > many a megacorp, AND it would have a lot of high tech corporate
Actually, that's a fabulous idea. And the low level of taxation present would
appeal to most of the Mercs and Companies too. And the fact that anyone who
ever wants to hire a merc (or might) will not want to offend the Lichtenstein
government for fear of being 'blacklisted'. I like that!
Now, Grand Cayman might still be one of the world's offshore banking
capitals.... although one wonders if there might be 'offworld' banking
capitals in the same fashion in 2285....
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.softwarekinetics.ca or http://www.sofkin.ca or
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Noah Doyle wrote:
hmmm... it looks like I've missed something -- what happened to Israel?
> Steve Pugh wrote:
> The Portugal and Britain thing isn't much in evidence these days.
Well that shouldn't be a problem since My FT/DS/SG gaming starts at
around 2180, (not into ancient history <g>) however I disagree with you saying
Portugal joining up with England is unlikely.
> 1. Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, all the bits from Yugoslavia.
Croatia and Slovenia going to NSL perhaps?
> 2. Where exactly are the IF/PAU and IF/ESU borders? And how fluid are
I think the white areas on your Map, the ones between PAU and IF flow nicely
with teh struggle between these two powers in these border regions for the
hearts and minds of these peoples. Leave them in "contention."
> 3. Is Taiwan still independent?
I would imagine that Tawain and the ESU wiould have "had it out" by the time
your map was drawn, which puts them either firmly in the ESU camp, or in the
same situation as Japan.
Hey what about Martha's Vinyard?
> At 14:25 11/08/98 -0400, you wrote:
It got nuked by the Middle Eastern powers. Thats why they created a new
homeeorld. And the Semitic Federation.
By the way considering the waning power of the nation state all this talk of
nations may be rather academic. In the context of FT though nations (or at
least power blocks) are imporatant. Its rather a cold war setup really with
various large skirmishs breaking out called wars but not really toppling the
balance of power.
> Rick Rutherford wrote:
> > As for a map of Terra circa 2185, I can't find the appropriate
Wiped out in 2027. See FT2, p.40.
Israel is now the completely offworld New Israel, after the homeland got
destroyed by nuclear and biological weapons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
= =
Due to a mix-up in urology, |^^^^^|
orange juice will not be served this morning... |^^^^^|
|_____|
> You wrote:
> 1. Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, all the bits from Yugoslavia.
I really need to know about Bulgaria. It's important for my alternate
background--New Sofia gets overrun by Nea Rhomaioi, and the survivors
of whatever force is defending it meet the same grizzly fate that gave Tsar
Sammuel (I think, and I can't be bothered to look it up) a heart attack.
> John Atkinson wrote:
...Various bits snipped...
> > FSE: France, Spain, Italy
JTL... Ireland could also go to the NSL as Irish units/decendents
did serve in the Austrian army in the 1700/1800s.
> > NSL: Germany, Austria
JTL... I think most of the old Austria-Hungarian empire would return
to the NSL. (at least down to Croatia.)
> > IR: Mediterranean Africa, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Iraq,
JTL... Turkey might throw its lot in with the NSL or FCT, actually anything is
preferable to being ruled by arabs. (they will fight to the last man.)
> [quoted text omitted]
> >1. Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, all the bits from Yugoslavia.
> background--New Sofia gets overrun by Nea Rhomaioi, and the survivors
> Tsar Sammuel (I think, and I can't be bothered to look it up) a heart
Are they REALLY going to blind all those guys?
> You wrote:
> Are they REALLY going to blind all those guys?
99.5%. And that ain't all... You, out of the gene pool! With laser torches.
This is part of reason IMHO terrorism doesn't pay. My version of the universe
is a very nasty place. The Nea Rhomaioi and the Islamic Fed
(which includes the Kaliphate--the Shi'a took over in my background
rather than breaking off) are best known for calculated nastiness, but all of
'em indulge in it. Terrorists are basically cowards. Fact o'
life. When major powers don't care if their proof meets Anglo-American
courtroom legal standards and tend towards trigger-happiness when there
is any doubt, life is very, very exciting. When the response to
Islamic Federation-sponsored terror varys from the Deep Space Fleet
bombarding a colony to radioactive ash to SOF teams being inserted to
eliminate terrorist training camps, terror no longer pays. And none of the
cultures I deal with have subscribed to that pathetic fallacy that the
terrorist's victims are somehow to blame for their situation, rather unlike
certain elements of today's population.
I think I'm giving (in my universe) Bulgaria to the Romanovs. This way I can
still give a Tsar a stroke.:)
> You wrote:
> JTL... Ireland could also go to the NSL as Irish units/decendents
During the 1700s and 1800s Irish units fought in the Austrian, French, Spanish
(IIRC, not sure), Mexican, United States, and British armies. Plus I'm sure
I've missed a few. Ireland during that time period produced two things.
Irishmen and potatoes. And not enough of the latter to provide for the former.
So Irishmen left Ireland (even today Ireland's biggest export item is
Irishmen) for wherever they could get a job. Including whatever armies were
hiring.
> > NSL: Germany, Austria
Probably. Hungary, Chezchs, Slovaks, Slovenia, Croatia. Bosnia goes Islamic
Federation (!), Serbs go Romanov, Macedonians do whatever the Serbs tell them.
Albania probably ends up FSE due to historic ties to Italy. Romania and
Bulgaria go Romanov? At least in my universe.
> JTL... Turkey might throw its lot in with the NSL or FCT, actually
Ummm . . . well, in my background is a bit different--Turks run the
Islamic Fed. But I don't see them in with NSL or FSE, really.
> At 00:35 12/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Ireland's biggest export item is Irishmen) for wherever they could get
Not quite true anymore oddly enough as we currently have the best economy in
Europe (according to statistics). Although Britain going into recession may
have a nasty effect on us. There are actually more people coming back into the
country from abroad than leaving over the last few years. We even have
economic migrants coming in here now for a change.
With regard to all of the above I can confirm those although I'm not sure
about the Spanish. I'm sure some did. They used to get everywhere. As to
potatoes well the country was producing rather a lot more than that but that
was the popular image.
As to being part of the NSL I very much doubt it (apart from the cool ships!).
Ties between Ireland and Germany are not very strong. Well apart from German
support (guns) for the 1916 rebellion but there wasn't much of that really.
Although in terms of economics Germany has become much more important as a
trade partner. France always had much more of an effect on our history. They
attempted to aid the 1798 rebellion with troops at the very least. The French
revolution was also an inspiration for the 1798 rebellion. Geographically its
much closer as well as culturally (Catholic tradition) than Germany.
By the way Ireland is a neutral country so unless being part of the EU changes
that (which I doubt) it stikes me that along with the Swiss, the Austrians,
and Nordic countries we may be still independent. Unless the NAC takes us over
or attitudes change radically. One problem of having a long memory. Economic
dominance is not unlikely though.
At this rate we should really start a separate list for the discussion of
historical and political perspectives on the FT universe. Its a pity a list
that used to be quite friendly and sensible has taken a turn for the worse.
Maybe we should just put a total ban on certain topics for a while and let
things get back to normal.
Frankly I am rather more interested in hearing about the effect of the Fleet
book on the game at the moment.
> At 13:34 12/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
I love history myself. I do prefer to read it from well researched books
though or good documentaries. I dislike hearing it slanted one way or another
to suit someones political or religious views though. Unless its some of the
roman historians. Highly amusing stuff at times.
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:30:28 -0500, Thomas Barclay writes:
If people fel there is serious need for a seperate list, I'll volunteer to
start one up. Lists are easy, finding good enough content is the hard part.
Niall spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >> At this rate we should really start a separate list for the
Anyone game to tackle setting up such a list?
> I love history myself. I do prefer to read it from well researched
Mind you, almost any interpretation (even a discussion of what constitutes a
fact) is a slant of some sort. The hard part in history is being able to look
at all the 'slants' on an event and come up with an understanding of how it
looked to each side. And I don't think this is going to be any easier in 2185.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.softwarekinetics.ca or http://www.sofkin.ca or
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:30:28 -0500, Thomas Barclay writes:
IMHO, reasoned discussion of the development and details of the background is
perfectly valid on this list, and very useful. It just needs a consensus
of common sense to know when it has drifted far enough off-topic that
the thread should be killed....
> On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Niall Gilsenan wrote:
> At 13:34 12/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
I don't know, I really think the slanted histories are interesting. Especially
when you know more unbiased accounts to compare it to. Really makes you wonder
exactly how much we really know about what happened in the past, and how much
is just creative fiction to justify people's ulterior motives.
> --------------------
> Matthew Seidl wrote:
Friends, (This is a statement of fact, an option, or wishful thinking, at your
pleasure.)
A new 'list' / 'discussion group' may be useful if those interested
wish to create/develop the timeline of FT/MT to a more detailed level.
Suggertions/Basic questions:
1) Where to start? 2) How broad will the scope be? 3) How specific will the
'new' future history be? (I personally think that too much detail will kill
innovation for the people who want to do thier own thing. (however, in the
G.W.
world, one cannot have too much detail. It sells product!))
4) What is the objective?
Bye for now,
John spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Friends, (This is a statement of fact, an option, or wishful
Hey, we're all friends here. (As long as we have thick skins some
days....)
1) Where to start?
Get a list made, post the info, get people to join it who are interested.
2) How broad will the scope be?
I'd suggest anything relating to the background of FT
- politics
- economics
- history
- the who is who in the universe
- the technologies
- campaign rules
3) How specific will the 'new' future history be?
I'd think we'll create a 'baseline' timeline and then flesh in things we see
fit to flesh in. Maybe we'll ask for some official clarification here and
there, or maybe we'll just make stuff up. Maybe we'll mark the 'official
facts' as such and our own insertions as such so the result is more useful to
others.
> 4) What is the objective?
To reduce list traffic for those who only wish to discuss tactics, ship
designs, etc.
To promote the discussion of what shape our future universe takes.
To put like minded people (in terms of what is worth discussing) on a list
where we won't get a lot of complaints about us being 'way off into background
issues' from those who aren't interested
That's my idea!
Tom.
The only problem with two lists is that most of these
poly-history-whatever discussions usually start from something on the
technical end of the regular FT list then get replied to and spun off from
there. And what's so difficult, in this day and age of modern newsgroup
reading software tojust deleted threads you don't want to read? (Unless of
course you don't want to get snagged at work goofing off reading SCI Fi stuff
on your work account. LORD knows I never do that) <grin>
Los
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> John spake thusly upon matters weighty: