Hi people (long time since I posted anything)
I'm after some advice. I've agreed to produce a web site for a miniatures
manufacturer free of charge! (I know I'm mad).
Well it is actually a college project so I do get something out of it.
(college at my age!)
What I want to know is: 1. what do you lot like about some existing miniatures
pages? 2. what do you hate? 3. what should it contain? 4. what features would
you like to see?
I know we have discussed being able to see the miniatures before buying but
there must be other points.
Thanks
1. what do you lot like about some existing miniatures pages?
- Indexes. Very useful for finding something that you
know you want to get again.
- Categories. If you are just browsing or new to the
manufacturer, being able to zero-in on the genre you
want is nice.
- Pictures. A MUST! Some on the list prefer painted,
some prefer unpainted. Both would be the best. But if I have to make a choice,
I prefer painted but with no "extras" that are not included with the
miniature. That is if the sniper does not come with Ghille <sp> netting, don't
show it with it.
- Scale (25mm, 15mm, 6mm, 1/300th, 1/2000th etc.)
- Prices. Duh.
- An idea of shipping cost.
- Currency conversion. This is nice when dealing
across borderrs.
- What's New section. Frequent visitors can find the
new stuff without searching the whole site.
- List of conventions that they will attend.
- Physical address of the manufacturer (at least
Country and State/Provance/Region). So that you can
estimate shipping time.
2. what do you hate?
- No pictures. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH! A description does NOT
cut it.
- No contact E-mail address.
- Only one way to order (mail, fax, online, etc.).
3. what should it contain?
- Pictures. (Getting the idea?)
- All the miniature line.
- Contact info.
- Ordering info.
- A list of Restrictions [preferably none] (i.e. US
orders only. Visa/MC only).
- Multiple ways to order (online, e-mail, fax, phone,
postal mail).
- See response to question #1.
4. what features would you like to see?
- Pictures. (OK, I'll stop now)
- Site Map. Sometimes things get obscured on an index.
- Search. This would be a GREAT feature.
- Out of Production miniatures. If a company offered
a miniature, but no longer does, it would be nice
to keep a list/gallery of these. Sometimes a person
is searching for an old mini and it would be helpful to know that it is out of
print, who made it, and the old stock number.
---
Brian Bell bbell1@insight.rr.com
http://www.ftsr.org/
---
-------Original Message---------
Hi people (long time since I posted anything)
I'm after some advice. I've agreed to produce a web site for a miniatures
manufacturer free of charge! (I know I'm mad).
Well it is actually a college project so I do get something out of it.
(college at my age!)
What I want to know is: 1. what do you lot like about some existing miniatures
pages? 2. what do you hate? 3. what should it contain? 4. what features would
you like to see?
I know we have discussed being able to see the miniatures before buying but
there must be other points.
Thanks
Brian Bell waffled:
> 1. What do you want?
What are you trying to say here, Brian? Could you stop beating around the
bush? <g>
Ideally I'd like to see (in this order) a) a mini that have been primed grey,
washed black, and drybrushed white, so I can get a good feel for how much
detail there is; minimum would be black wash; b) a mini that has been painted,
preferably in the "standard" colors if there is a background that specifies
them.
c) a _complete_ text description ("15mm GZG human NSL power armor with
longarm plasma gun and over-the-shoulder micro-rocket launcher" -- NOT
just "power armor")
Pictures, pictures and more pictures.
I want to know how big the mini is. A picture of some of the minis in the line
next to minis from other manufacturers would be a good thing. I don't want to
accidently pick up GW sized 25's to mix in with my RP sized 25's.
Fairly High Res pictures. 100x100 or so filling the frame is a minimum. Many
of us are using 1280x1024 19 inch monitors these days and you just can't get
much from the tiny, out of focus pictures you often see.
Thumbnails work well for this, it saves load times for those things you don't
want.
If I have a good idea of what I'm buying I will live with fiddly ordering
procedures and be quite happy. If I have to guess what I am buying I won't buy
it.
> What I want to know is:
Pictures.
> 2. what do you hate?
o Pages and pages of package numbers and undifferentiable descriptions, with
no image links. (E.g., M1001 Trooper with rifle, M1002 Trooper with rifle,
M1003, Trooper with carbine, etc.) o Animations. These are static miniatures;
don't waste my bandwidth with Flash and other garbage. (If you really need to
vary things, randomize some of your "background color" images when the page is
loaded.)
o Lack of cross-indexing.
o "Artist's drawings" of figures instead of photos of the figures. (Drawings
are great if they represent upcoming products that are not yet available.)
> 3. what should it contain?
Pictures. Prices in US dollars. Indices Pictures.
> 4. what features would you like to see?
o Pictures. I'd prefer that figures be at least washed with
black to bring out the detail, but primer white + black wash
would be even better. Fully-painted figures are nice, but
I want to see the detail *before* they are painted. o Something to indicate
scale. (I've started putting a scale along one edge of my miniature pictures
for my gallery. I haven't had a chance to post the new pictures yet, but email
me directly and I'll send you a couple.)
o Cross-indexes and keyword search. (You did say "like to see.")
A power-armor trooper with GL in 25mm should show up if I look
for SF, Sci-Fi, Future, 25mm, power armor, grenade launcher, etc.
A 6mm hover tank should show up under SF, Sci-Fi, Future, 6mm,
hover, GEV, tank, etc. (FWIW, this doesn't mean you have to duplicate entries
on multiple pages. Tag the images (or their individual pages) with keywords,
and generate the indices with a script. Feel free to contact me directly if
you have questions about this approach.) Conversely, if I search for "6mm
hover tank", I would expect to see all the minis that could be interpreted as
hover tanks.
> I know we have discussed being able to see the miniatures before buying
But none as important.
- Sam
> Samuel Reynolds wrote:
> Prices in US dollars.
I don't know about other manufacturers, but we calculate prices in other
currencies on the day we receive an order, using the current exchange rate. So
any prices in anything other than sterling on the website would be approximate
at best unless the website is a proper database setup
which can calculate exchange rates on the fly - and ours isn't.
And there are other countries in the world besides the US - if we were
to put up prices in the local currency of every customer we sell to,
there'd be no room left on the page for PICTURES ;-)
On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 07:37:14 -0400 "bbell1@insight.rr.com"
> <bbell1@insight.rr.com> writes:
YES! save me time and I might add a few extra figures to the order.
> - Categories. If you are just browsing or new to the
Historicals by era/nationality
SF by 'race' and figure type (infantry, ships, AFV)
Fantasy by 'race' and background (Good/evil, Law/Chaos, etc.)
> - Pictures. A MUST! Some on the list prefer painted,
Oh YEAH, #1 for me.
> - Scale (25mm, 15mm, 6mm, 1/300th, 1/2000th etc.)
Especially so you can see if they have the same figure in multiple scales (for
the fanatics among us)
> - Prices. Duh.
I know a web site (who shall remain anonymous) who failed to put price
list in version 1.0 - double duh.
> - An idea of shipping cost.
And if credit card involves 'actual postage costs' - maybe I'd get one
then. Nah.
> - Currency conversion. This is nice when dealing
Or a link to a site for conversions, I have two bookmarked at work.
> - What's New section. Frequent visitors can find the
Okay, that's cool.
> - List of conventions that they will attend.
Ooooh, I like that. Maybe then Icould see them "live" and in the lead.
> - Physical address of the manufacturer (at least
I assume forever anymore.
> 2. what do you hate?
Preach it bro'!
> - No contact E-mail address.
Or one they don't use for customer inquiry - Foundry comes to mind.
> - Only one way to order (mail, fax, online, etc.).
I love options but since I don't do credit cards and I hate banks charging
fees for converting currencies (like they don't just do wire transfers now
days...)
> 3. what should it contain?
Nice work, Brian!
On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Roger Books
> <books@mail.state.fl.us> writes:
YES, yes, and yes. I have these great old plastic "25mm" Space Rangers" that
tower over my "25mm" Reviresco figures. Great figures but (in scale) about 8
feet tall!
> Fairly High Res pictures. 100x100 or so filling the frame is
Almost as bad as no picture in some cases.
> Thumbnails work well for this, it saves load times for those
Nice thought but even load time is not a killer IF there are good pictures
available...
> If I have a good idea of what I'm buying I will live with fiddly
My rule, NO pictures (assumes local shop can't/won't carry them) means
NO buying.
Only exception - someone has the exact figures I am interested in and
they show them to me.
On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:27:31 -0400 "Chris DeBoe" <LASERLIGHT@QUIXNET.NET>
writes:
> Brian Bell waffled:
Excellent idea, I think this is a #1 priority in pictures...
> b) a mini that has been painted, preferably in the "standard" colors
Yes, but as someone else on another list (same type thread months ago)
said - "I don't paint that good so mine never look that way" applies to
me. But it is better then no pictures!
> c) a _complete_ text description ("15mm GZG human NSL power armor with
Oh yeah, love those two word 'descriptions' - 'Power armor' is about as
descriptive as "red wine'. Especially without pictures. (Bit of a mantra
starting...)
In message <ML-3.4.991748574.6966.books@babinga.dms.state.fl.us>, Roger
Books w rites:
> Pictures, pictures and more pictures.
What makes a good miniatures website, in my opinion:
1) A responsive and speedy company behind it.
You can have the greatest line of figures, with complete low and high
res shots of each miniature raw, black-washed and painted, but if it
takes me three months to get an order in and you don't respond to my
e-mails and phone calls, then to heck with you.
2) Complete catalog with accurate pricing and shipping information, and an
obvious mechanism to order.
Even if the site doesn't have a secure ordering mechanism or shopping cart,
even a simple form to type in what you want (and which ensures
there are no typos in the e-mail address, and that the buyer gets all
the info he needs, such as address and phone number) is a good thing to have.
3) Catalog in text and ordered by category.
I don't want to be forced to download large, slow images of your catalog (Frei
Korps) to see what I want on the 17th page, nor do I even want your catalog in
text in a single large document (Pendraken) with my interests at the bottom.
Give me category listing that allows me to get reasonably close to what I want
to see as quick as possible.
4) Images are nice, but not necessary.
Don't blow the quality of the site by concentrating on the images! Better to
have a site with only the above than anything else with every image you'd want
to see. In lieu of a complete picture catalog, put up several representative
scans in a gallery.
A lot of people will say that if they can't see what they're buying, they
won't buy it. I'm sure this is true for them, but if this were the norm, most
of the companies out there would be out of business. The fact is that people
are willing to at least order some samples site unseen to get an idea of a
line's qualityp, or order based on seeing a few samples.
These are issues I've been dealing with as I review companies I've
On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:49:31 +0100 Tony Francis <tony.francis@kuju.com>
writes:
> Samuel Reynolds wrote:
Link to the many currency convertors on the web. I have two I like book marked
at work. Converting Singaporean dollars in cost comparisons to Malaysian
whatevers is easy that way...
> And there are other countries in the world besides the US - if we were
And a link to a convertor would solve that for everyone. IIRC, there is a
company in Australia that has the link built into their home page.
CastawayArts? Another company (Eureka?) has a option to have the prices in
'your' currency on their web page, IIRC.
> Tony
Dunno if your school project has already covered this, so if it's old news,
just delete this post, but...
Surfers have VERY low attention spans. This is important for any site, not
just miniatures, but it's becoming amazing to me how few site builders
understand this important fact.
Intergalactic Trading Company(or something like that) has a store front
that makes you drill down through at least five text-only layers of
indeci to find out they don't have the item you seek. If you want five items
in five genre, you have to back out of each and drill down again. Impressive
selection, some good prices, but I don't shop there anymore.
Even 50 year old guys know what they want, and they want it NOW.
Rapidity of loading is another must; the comment on thumbnails underscores
this. Frames and java/javascript have both snazzy and fundimentally
valuable functionality (I know, you never thought I'D say it), but if they get
in the way or slow down the load, then it's the old story of marvelous power
misused.
Probably the most important feature: Should have been seen by other folks
before me. Think playtesting game rules: you need people who don't know, don't
even think as you do, and listen to them when they're fresh from trying your
designs.
Sorry if this is OT to even your question, but I've too much of late needed to
vent.
*** a bit later...
Hmmm, you certainly have opened the floodgates! In the time it took me to
compose, admittedly at work, the above, it's been fast and furious. I think
the points above are STILL valid.
There are some disagreements: 'must have images' vs. 'must have what I want
easily found' seems big, though shouldn't be mutually exclusive. And, as the
web designer, you have little control of the company's other practices, such
as shipping, timely new notices, etc. But you do can have an effect by having
order processing software on the site working with the company's shipping
dept., and having the What's New pages easy to maintain, but that's several
whole 'nuther topics
Oh, Glenn? You can try to combine points in one post. ;->=
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
Then take a look at how www.hlj.com handles currency conversions. All of their
pages are generated from a database and include a *link* to a currency
conversion site, that way anyone in the world can look up the current price in
their currency and you only need one link for the conversion to everything.
Actually, take a look at HLJ anyway, it's an excellent site.
> ------------ Original Message -----------
> CastawayArts? Another company (Eureka?) has a option to have the
Not quite, but close. Eureka allows you to specify what currency you want to
work in (all prices on the site are listed in Australian dollars) and then
when you move your mouse over the "add to cart" button, in the window at the
bottom will come up the price of the item in your currency. Also, a running
total is kept at the bottom of the screen in Au$ and also your chosen
currency.
Actually having prices show in the chosen currency is a good idea done by
some sites (non-miniatures) and worth exploring...
> At 03:49 5/06/01 +0100, you wrote:
I have seen websites that ask for the currency and give you a approximate
price
http://www.hlj.com/
Hobby link Japan springs to mind the prices are in Yen, but you state the
currency and it sends you to another page
http://www.xe.net/cgi-bin/ucc/convert
giving the price in the required currency.
G'day guys,
> Actually having prices show in the chosen
Icon miniatures at
http://www.harlequin-miniatures.com/
have all the prices in the currency of choice so long as you're from the
range of 42 countries offered (you have to click on the flag of the country
you're after as you enter the site). Not sure how they do it, but its probably
a Java thing and doesn't seem to slow down the site much at all.
Cheers
Many thanks to those of you (Derek, Samuel, Beth and anyone else I've missed)
who've pointed out good examples of websites with currency conversion options.
I've just introduced a conversion facility on the Brigade site that uses an
external service to provide prices in any selected currency.
Thanks again for opening my eyes to something I didn't previously think was
available to us.
Cheers
Thanks for all the advice.
Once the project gets started I might ask for peoples opinions again.
You will have opinions for me won't you?.................. :)
> Thanks for all the advice.
All the opinions can be encapsulated into one sentence:
"We want everything the way we want it and we want it yesterday."
:)
(Very important to learn the old maxim: You can't please all the people all
the time!)
I'm going to stick an unsolicited plug in for Tony Francis' Brigade Minis
website - http://www.brigademodels.co.uk - (I think...)
Intelligent use of frames, nearly completely illustrated, easy to navigate. I
(still) haven't ordered anything from Brigade, but the site is a pleasure to
browse thru.
Ainsty Casting is also well done - http://www.ainsty.co.uk - considering
the massive range of stuff they sell.
Some of the other UK minis firms have fairly dreadful websites, to be
honest... Chariot & FreiKorp both have what looked like scnned pages of
their print catalog - big, big images - as web catalog pages, and
minimal indexing.
GeoHex - http://www.geohex.com - is straightforward but highly usable,
and again has fairly large numbers of photos.
Someone mentioned seeing scale in miniatures photos - this is a great
idea. At least pose some stuff next to a figure of known size, or stick a
coin next to it - although this last can be problematic given the
international nature of the web. I've got a Canadian quarter in some of my
review scans, but excepting anyone but a Canadian or American to know how big
that coin actually is is a bit much... (Canuck & Yank coinage is very
nearly identically sized...) A scale of mm or 1/16th" along one side of
the scan or photo is a great idea...
Hope this helps a bit,
> --- Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
It is a great site. I particularly like some of the "family" pictures so you
can see a lot of miniatures at once. A few of the links have "no image
available" but not many. I also like to see the design studio to see what's
coming and the gallery to see how well they CAN be painted.
... (Canuck &
> Yank coinage is very
I'm all the way down in Atlanta, Georgia, USA and I still get a fair amount of
canadian currency with my change. It's close enough so you don't even notice
most of the time.
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:28:35 -0500 devans@uneb.edu writes:
<snip>
> Oh, Glenn? You can try to combine points in one post. ;->=
Learn from the master, don't try and beat him. Yet.
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:54:13 -0500 Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org> writes:
Different horses for different courses... But a valid point. For me, once I
see what I want, then this becomes #1, but no pictures, no buy
still stands until/unless I see them 'live and in the lead' and I think
it's the practice of many people to see them either 'live' or in pictures that
leads them to trust "all" the figures are of the same quality, style (although
Irregular's 'variability' does come to mind) but without some
reference for the figure maker's size/style I think many people will
find substitutes or wait for someone else to order some...
> 2) Complete catalog with accurate pricing and shipping information,
> 3) Catalog in text and ordered by category.
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 23:57:24 EDT, Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> Different horses for different courses... But a valid point. For me,
Very good point. I haven't bought any figures "sight unseen". I have either
seen the figures myself, or had recommendations by people. On the other hand,
I also want to see the pictures. I won't buy figures from a line I trust,
even, if I can't see what I'm buying. For one thing, I want to know that a
ship, figure, vehicle, etc. listed in the catalogue is what I think it is.
> 4) Images are nice, but not necessary.
I disagree with this (I realize this isn't Glenn's comment). Having purchased
figures online, I want to be able to see every figure. I want to make sure
that the poses are what I think they should be, I want to know that the entire
line of ships are of similar design, etc. This is less of a problem with
historicals, though, as a few representative samples are usually good enough.
An example: I have some Valient starships, including the aliens. I saw that
Valient makes fighters for their fleets. I went to the web site and found the
alien ships. It turns out that I don't care for how they package the fighters
(there are 5 different ships per sprue, 3 of which I don't like). I did think
of buying the human fighters, though, but they don't have detailed pictures of
these. I decided to pass on them.
> A lot of people will say that if they can't see what they're buying,
I would argue that most people are not buying them sight unseen, but are
buying them after friends bought them, or they saw them at a convention, or
had a recommendation, etc. I think that companies would get more "blind"
buying if their figures could be seen. Again, this is more an issue for
sci-fi
figures than historicals.
The easiest way to show pictures is to have a categorized web site with a text
catalogue, and a link to the pictures. Valiant, funny enough, does this and I
think it's the best method. You can click on the link to see the pictures, but
you don't HAVE to wait for the pictures to load in order to see the catalogue.
> At 12:27 18/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
Back before the internet, and when there was only mail order via sea unless
you really wanted to pay the cost of airmail. We would order a few miniatures
to look them over.
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:20:57 +1000 Derek Fulton
<derekfulton@bigpond.com> writes:
> At 12:27 18/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
Roger that, Derek, but that's why I quit doing that. I never bought Irregular
but there is a specific example of an established source with a wide spread of
scales and eras with an even wider spread of quality over those ranges. And
not necessarily 'bad' quality but styles I like (and most don't) or I hate
(but others love) that can make a "few miniatures"
not necessarily representative of the specific line/era you are
interested in. Even by the same sculptors (Like Foundry's stable) there can be
a variation over time and lines (Foundry Woodland Indians versus Orcs) that
might be significant to me. **Then** it was a fact of life, now it's not
necessary to suffer from lack of information. And yes, this is one of those
"hard core, stubborn Indian ain't going to change" things with me. No See, No
buy. Period. Ever (anymore) and forever (well, at least longer then the gras
grows and the water flows here in
America.....
It's a joke, sir! A joke!) Several companies lost my money to what is possibly
lesser quality figures because there's no where to see them (well, the figures
I want, not *all* their figures.) Irregular could be rich today....
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Roger Books
> <books@mail.state.fl.us> writes:
I agree with Roger, and yes, I missed the 'perfect' 25mm figure from Irregular
(Finally saw it on the net (*but* not the Irregular site)) and said "That's
what I wanted!" but since I already had filled that hole
with an /adequate/ substitute - no sale.
When I redo my (Changing 25mm to 6mm) NKE/foes armies It will almost
certainly be Baccus because the Irregular sites *Still* doesn't have pictures
of what I want (last time I could get on a browser and look) and Peter does.
That simple. YMMV.
[OT!!!! OT!!!!] Anybody want some 25mm NKE's? Write me off line. Ral
Partha and Hinchcliffe figures.
Gracias,
> At 10:04 18/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
Not everyone is computer literate, that's a fairly harsh assumption to make,
but of course it's your dollar:)
In message <5.1.0.14.0.20010619004712.00a026c0@mail.bigpond.com>, Derek Fulton
writes:
> At 10:04 18/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
> make, but of course it's your dollar :)
I've got to agree with this. Again, I'll state that the industry has been
doing just fine without images, as much as we'd all like to see
OTOH, If they have a web site, they have someone that is at least a little
computer literate and the web site deals only with those literate enough to be
able to get to the web site.
A better justification would be cost. Taking professional level photos of each
miniature, converting it to.gif or.jpeg, and posting it on a web page
can cost a fair amount in money and/or time. But IMO, it would increase
sales and decrease customer dissatisfaction by an amount that it would be well
worth the effort and expense. And as I have said before, the pictures do not
have to be of professional quality. Even a poor picture may be better than no
picture.
> On 18-Jun-01 at 11:00, Andy Cowell (andy@cowell.org) wrote:
If you can put up a web page you can put one up with pictures.
Harsh maybe, and the industry might be doing fine, off the net, without
pictures, but on the net is another world.
And not being computer literate is _not_ an acceptable answer. If
you're going to be on the net, you'd better be computer literate or find
someone who is.
The
consequences are to high for everyone otherwise.
Frankly, my assumption is, if you don't have pictures of what you're selling
on the net, then you don't want me to see it. If you don't want me to see it,
you've got something to hide, and whatever you want to hide, you can keep it.
Rand.
> Andy Cowell wrote:
> In message <5.1.0.14.0.20010619004712.00a026c0@mail.bigpond.com>,
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Randall L Joiner wrote:
> And not being computer literate is _not_ an acceptable answer. If
Ah? The world is going to end? Innocent people will die? Or...?
Seriously, let's not overexagerate this. Yes, I'm as annoyed as everyone else
with people on the net who have no clue what they are doing, posting
MIME_encoded messages to newsgroups, sending HTML in mail & news etc.
But face it, who's going to suffer if a trader has a poor website? Noone but
the trader.
> Frankly, my assumption is, if you don't have pictures of what you're
This sounds about as paranoid as most of the UFO stories. Does it take all
that much to imagine that a good few of the miniature traders are hobbiests
scraping a living off their hobby? Many simply can't AFFORD to spend the time
to make a website with a great deal of pictures (since only a few pictures is
not acceptable), and they can't afford to have it done for them, either. It's
not like they're sneakily becoming millionaires or such.
I do agree with not buying unseen miniatures, to the extent that in case of
doubt I'll order a few samples, and THEN decide to go for the big order
or not. And yes, I do _like_ fully illustrated catalogues online, and it
sure is likely to make me lean that way when ordering. But please, knock it
off with the conspiracy theories?
Cheers,
> In message <3B2E1A0A.D6012338@mindspring.com>, Randall L Joiner writes:
So, you're saying that a sound company which is not computer literate
but manages to publish their no-picture catalog online will face
"high" consequences. Please explain, because I don't see how that follows.
> Frankly, my assumption is, if you don't have pictures of what you're
Again, the state of the industry and of companies with no picture
websites would seem to indicate that this is a non-issue. I think
most people are adequately satisfied by sample pictures or "word of mouth"
reiews.
I think some people online with computer familiarity tend to get overwhelmed
by the availability of resources and ease of use, and overemphasize the Net's
role in our hobby. I have been guilty of this. I would venture that the
majority of our hobby weigh in on the casual net user (or less) side. Really
useful websites are difficult
and expensive to maintain and keep up-to day, and most miniatures
companies can't afford it-- and nobody's offered any evidence that it
would be cost effective for them to do so (although I think it can
Various posts snipped.
Fact:
Many of us won't order from companies without pictures.
Fact:
If we aren't ordering it costs said company business.
Fact:
If you are a mini company "on the edge" this could be the difference between
surviving and going under.
It costs under $300 for a digital camera. JPEGs can take under 1KByte each.
'Nuff said.
> Harsh maybe, and the industry might be doing fine, off the net,
Depends. ;-)
I'll argue 'til I'm blue in the face that the web is a different medium and
hence that rules worked out in other media don't apply. And as a medium the
web is not limited to visual displays anyway. Decent web sites are accessible
with audio browsers or over limited bandwidth and poor display mobile devices.
But as the stock market over the past year has shown, the web is NOT a 'new
economy' or any such rubbish. The same economies apply. If
photos don't bring in more profits when used in non-web media then
there's no reason to suppose that they will bring in more profits
when used on the web. Note _profits_ not _sales_, see below.
You are providing anecdotal eveidence that the cost may be worth it but saying
that you won't buy from a site that doesn't have photos is not the same as
saying that you will buy from one that does. They may add photos and you still
won't buy, so they've wasted their money.
> And not being computer literate is _not_ an acceptable answer. If
It is very, very easy to make a web site. This is both a good thing and a bad
thing. I would argue that a commercial organisation should hire a professional
to make its web site (of course I would, I am one of those professionals) but
for many miniature firms that is simply an unacceptable cost.
So they do make the web site themselves. Now, how long does it take to
photograph 1000s of miniatures? How long does it take to prep those
photographs for use on the web (a different set of requirements to prepping
them for print use)?
Now remember that this is being done by a regular member of staff (and there
may only be one or two of those in the whole company) who won't be available
to pack orders, sculpt new miniatures, make moulds, cast miniatures, do the
accounts, etc. whilst he or she is working on the web site. For a small
company that may be an unacceptable cost. A lot of miniature companies are
very small and anything that costs them business today, even if it would
generate business tomorrow, is simply not an option.
Again, in these small companies there may not be anyone with any photographic
experience. I'm an above average all round photographer but my attempts to
photograph miniatures have always come out terribly.
> Frankly, my assumption is, if you don't have pictures of what you're
Does that apply to GZG? Last time I checked the GZG web site (which
is only semi-official so may not count in your opinion) doesn't have
pics of large portions of its range. So do you refuse to buy from GZG?
Irregular have been mentioned. I hate the Irregular web site, it's simply
dreadful for many more reasons than simple lack of photographs. But equally
annoying is the Old Glory web site (the US
one not the even worse UK one) - they have photos of nearly
everything but often the photos are too bad to see anything useful.
I don't know if I have a point. I think that if I do it's to say that it's not
as easy as some people seem to think to produce a fully illustrated web site
on next to no money.
In message <ML-3.4.992879483.6306.books@babinga.dms.state.fl.us>, Roger
Books w rites:
> Various posts snipped.
"Many" is not a precise term. Please offer at least some evidence that any
significant percentage of the consumers in our hobby won't do so.
> Fact:
You're not costing them anything, you're simply untapped revenue-- and
whether it is any significant amount or not really depends not only on the
precise definition of "many" above, but the identification of whatever smaller
subset would actually buy figures anyway (considering issues of scale and
genre), upon seeing them. If your "many" turns out to be a small percentage of
the industry, and then only a smaller subset of that is even interested in my
ranges, and even a smaller subset of *that*, all other things being equal,
would select my range over my competetors, we're really looking at potential
insignificant
numbers-- certainly numbers that, by themselves, do not motivate me to
do my website better.
> Fact:
Any company "on the edge" is not going to be able to invest the time and
effort to visually catalog hundreds if not thousands of items on their website
(see below).
> It costs under $300 for a digital camera. JPEGs can take under
This is so simplistic that I have a hard time responding to it in a brief
manner. You're totally discounting the time of the steep learning curve for
operating the camera, computer (do they even have
one?), and whatever you're generating the site with-- or paying
somebody, somebody other than your nephew who "made a webpage," to do it for
you. At *BEST*, you're talking weeks of work, and thousands of dollars,
whether its paid directly from you or from actual lost revenues because of the
manufacturing and sales you could have been doing instead. Then there are the
continued costs to update it to
Points taken. Very well said steve@pugh.net, but for me (and I can honestly
only speak for me,) it's got to visual (somehow, not necessarily
the net but if you knew my local hobby shop owner's not-so-latent
(anti-distributor, anti-'hobby shopists', etc) feelings you might
understand the crave I have to 'see' the stuff not available.) That and I am a
visual buyer. Always have been and probably always will be. But that is just
me. The only person I can speak for.
Gracias,
Okay with me (of course I just posted...)
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:12:21 -0500 devans@uneb.edu writes:
Agreed it costs. Also agree to disagree about priorities *except* for my
money. Ain't much but it's mine and not theirs until I "see" the figures
(again, not necessarily the net...)
Gracias,
Glenn/Triphibious
This is my Science Fiction Alter Ego E-mail address.
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:30:01 -0500 Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org> writes:
> At 10:44 AM -0500 6/18/01, Andy Cowell wrote:
Come on, he's not talking about the internet police descending and wreaking
havok, he's meaning that they won't get as much business.
> > Frankly, my assumption is, if you don't have pictures of what
Ok, I've been aware of the Eureka miniatures site for more than 2 years. I've
bought figs from there only once I'd seen what they looked like after someone
posted them here. I could have bought some figures long before had I known
what I was getting.
Several people have stated they want to see pictures.
> I think some people online with computer familiarity tend to get
Don't underestimate them. People are taking to it like ducks to
water. My mom has found e-bay and spends quite a bit of time looking
for all sorts of things. She's just as cautious. Don't buy what you can't see.
Be suspicious.
> this. I would venture that the majority of our hobby weigh in on the
Not really. A picture is easy. Server space is cheap now. Colocation space
costs for the customers has dropped through the floor.
> It costs under $300 for a digital camera. JPEGs
And hours, and hours, and hours of time, which costs money.
If you have a company with a several hundred thousand miniatures range, how
long do you think it will take to get _all_ the pictures on the net?
Considering you also have to run the business, take orders, pack orders, ship
orders, cast new miniatures, pay the bills, eat, sleep, kiss the
missus, pat the kids and/or animals, and perhaps once in this lifetime
get to have a life?
Add to this of course the voracious appetite on gamers on the net for the "new
and latest" and thus, you have to get pictures of that too, and that's the
highest priority because they want to see it now, now, now, now. In fact most
of the time, it's yesterday.
Making a webstore that is as many things to as many people as possible -
works, looks good, userfriendly - takes time, more time, and even more
time - which of course equals money, more money, and even more money.
Even if you're doing it on the cheap (which brings up all sorts of other
problems). Plus if you have a web person doing it for you, THEY have other
things to do too (like real life, funny that).
So while I agree pretty much about the pictures thing, I realise also that it
takes time to do all these things. And if the website is updated regularly and
not left in limbo, with news coming out at regular intervals, I take faith
that they're working on it.
> At 5:00 PM +0100 6/18/01, steve@pugh.net wrote:
Over the course of 2 years one can put together an nice website with very
little effort. Given the number of web staff that we at CNN have laid off and
due to the number of people I know who are capable, HTML literate folks are
very common.
Eureka in particular has the templates already. Photoshop has automated
functions (crop, size, adjust contrast, save as a thumbnail and fullsized
image all in a batch). If I were paid to do a small amount of photo processing
(all digital) I could handle 500 figs in a week doing nothing else.
> Now remember that this is being done by a regular member of staff
Hire one of the many out of work dot-com-ers. They'll work.
> Does that apply to GZG? Last time I checked the GZG web site (which
Most of what I have I purchased locally after seeing the fig. I only
just recently jumped into $100+ from Eureka.
> At 11:30 AM -0500 6/18/01, Andy Cowell wrote:
Add myself and Randy to that percentage. I can ask several other folks here in
the Atlanta group.
> > Fact:
A bad website will not gather customers. A good website will. Both cost
generally the same (web hosting space, sysadmins, etc). Some companies are
still selling quite well over the web entirely.
US-Cavalry.com probably makes as much if not more off of web sales
than they do off of phone calls.
> > Fact:
Then do it over time. Both the Eureka site and the Geo-Hex site have
changed little in the past two years.
> > It costs under $300 for a digital camera. JPEGs can take under
The Learning curve is not that steep. If you can use a computer, you can get
it right. Eureka already has some pictures. Someone figured it out. They had
someone build the Java.
> On 18-Jun-01 at 17:19, Jeremy Sadler (webmaster@stargrunt.com) wrote:
This company I would have to see. I'm guessing, but I would bet Ral Partha at
their height had fewer than 500 miniatures. GW may border on 1000.
<chuckle> several hundred thousand.
In a message dated 6/18/01 4:43:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
> rmgill@mindspring.com writes:
> The Learning curve is not that steep. If you can use a computer, you
I've been in the hobby forfor forty one years. I still HATE buying by mail,
phone or internet because I cannot hold the product in hand and look at it.
Now, I do buy by phone, mail and internet when I MUST (and that is more and
more often as local hobby stores dry up and blow away). When I MUST use the
internet, I sure want to see what I am buying - and that is a pale
reflection of picking the package up and examining the hell out of it before I
part with money to the shop owner, who is usually someone I know pretty well.
Web
stores cannot have that kind of customer interaction - if they do not
even have pictures then they are crippled even more.
I have become computer literate and competent through schooling and self
learning. As more and more hobby businesses find they can keep their doors
open with a combination of local sales, internet sales and phone orders
- and
may (SHOCK OF IT ALL) make a little money, they are going to have to become
competent in these other forms of selling. It is a survival thing.
> At 05:33 18/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
> functions (crop, size, adjust contrast, save as a thumbnail and
And how much will you charge? mmmmm
> At 7:25 AM +1000 6/19/01, Jeremy Sadler wrote:
Do they have a print catalog? The process is the same. Do it all on Computer
and you have far less work to do the next time you print a catalog. Had I not
gone into managing computer rooms for CNN, I'd likely be designing web pages
and working in the Desktop publishing industry.
Do they keep track of what figures are what? Many of the business systems you
use for keeping track of things like that have web companions. How are the
orders processed from the site? Do they post a form to a web page and then
decode the flat file? Or does it go into the order processing system.
> Add to this of course the voracious appetite on gamers on the net for
So 10 mor figures are added this month. So we add those to the web page.
> Making a webstore that is as many things to as many people as possible
Even
> if you're doing it on the cheap (which brings up all sorts of other
The really neat thing about this is that many of the web hosting
providers have the guts of e-commerce systems already built. You have
an active server page data base that has entries. It is just a database. You
can dump the data from a flat excel file into the database upload a bunch of
pictures and you're done.
> At 8:43 AM +1000 6/19/01, Derek Fulton wrote:
Well, I'm making $25/hr now for CNN as a technical type. A student or
out of work Web type would be about that I guess for contract type
work. I know a 14 year old that probably charges $20/hr, she did a
year and a half ago when she was doing web pages for people.
The only web site job I did had me and a friend doing a site for a shop I
frequented. She and I were doing design and implementation for
the plug and play e-commerce site. We ended up settling on $50 for
the contract work, usually the going rate for such work in Atlanta at the time
was $100 or so. Contract work makes quite a bit. Sadly she and I got bogged
down with projects on our real jobs and we couldn't play with them any more.
The owners picked up the learning curve and the site went on from there. They
finished out the catalog eventually.
Mind you I'm waaay over here on the other side of the planet so I'm not
terribly easy to meet. Plus I don't have much time.
Still, I'm in the business of the web site thing (CNN.com for the past 5
years) and I usually know what I'm talking about. The trick is finding someone
that is hungry enough not to charge you an arm and a leg and is able to do the
work.
A 2nd or 3rd year art student (or perhaps someone just out and looking for
work) is usually very good for such things. They have access to the toys and
want to learn the tricks. Having something substantial they can show as being
in their portfolio is the trick. And they don't come nearly as expensive as
the professionals.
In message <p05100e18b7544c05e9b6@[157.166.130.123]>, Ryan M Gill writes:
> Still, I'm in the business of the web site thing (CNN.com for the
Hmmmm...I've been doing this for about 10 years now, and I usually know
what I'm talking about, yet we disagree. :-)
There's one thing *I* agree on, and that's to stop posting on this