> Casquilho, Daniel wrote:
Dumbed down more like it, I'll be the first to admit that their miniatures are
good quality but their rules are based back in the 60's (borrowed form books
with titles like 'Battlegaming' or the 'Boys bumper book of wargaming') and
are simply there to get you to purchase more miniatures (exculsively from
Gamesworkshop of course).
Warmaster did look promising but they only played catch up, Beth and I find
the similarities Warmaster and the current corp of american rules amusing,
especially when Gamesworkshop try pretend that Gamesworkshop is the wargaming
hobby period.
> The fact is the "cottage industry" mentality is what will drive this
<snip, snip>
> Our hobby will continue to flounder as long as companies continue to
Let's not forget that wargaming IS A COTTAGE INDUSTRY and is not atypical
there are quite a few Hobbies catered for by businesses that are little more
than a couple of blokes in a shed out the back. But in our case, the hobby we
are involved in, wargaming, now has a supplier who is a
multi-national which aggressively attempts to remove the competition
(getting shop owners only to stock their product and promising good service if
this happens and putting you on the bottom of their list if you
don't).
( Rant, rant, rant......gets off soap box)
> Let's not forget that wargaming IS A COTTAGE INDUSTRY...
OK, I will try one more time. This started as a discussion on companies and
their lack of such simple things as pictures of their minis on their
web sites. So with that in mind... My point was that even though the industry
is a "cottage industry" is does not have to ACT LIKE ONE. It seems this is
hard to understand, but it is not. If I, a single person who sells items once
in a while, can have color pictures of my stuff why not someone who has a
small business?
You are right Derek, most of these companies are just a few blokes in a
shed out back, but that is part of the beauty of the web and e-commerce.
They can have a site better then GWs. It is not hard at all.
If you want to start a small company that sells some figures, go for it.
Once you make them, all it takes is for you to sit down for about an hour and
scan them. Assuming you have made a good looking figure then the pictures will
help market your stuff to guys who want to buy, but are unsure of your stuff.
When a computer with scanner can be had for less then $500 in the US (And I am
sure such deals also can be had in other countries) there is no excuse for a
company to have "text only" list for their miniatures. So what does a "Alien
with gun" look like anyway? But if I see it, I might say, "Oh that's cool,
give me 24 please."
That is what I mean by a company acting like it is still the 70's. Only way
you could see a figure then was by paper catalog or in ads in small trade
level magazines. An expensive option for a small, two bloke company. But
today, for a small fraction of that paper catalog you can have a full
color "catalog" on your web site. Complete with e-commerce order forms
mind you.
In fact, I will put my money (well time really) where my mouth is. Any of
those small "two bloke" companies who want to send me one of each figure
from their lines, I will scan, clean up, and send the pictures to the server
of your choice. Anyone want to take me up on this email me.
> ( Rant, rant, rant......gets off soap box)
:-) In the end I think we all want the same thing. To see our beloved
hobby to keep going. I just would also like to see the miniatures too
:-)
> "Casquilho, Daniel" wrote:
> OK, I will try one more time. This started as a discussion on
First off, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but would like to point out
a thing or two. To begin with, many of the wargaming companies are, as you
said, "just a few blokes in a shed out back". That being said, and given the
fact that wargaming is a cottage industry, the sad fact is that many of those
people who run the wargaming companies do so in addition to regular, full time
jobs, family, etc. So while it is *possible* for someone to do up a website
right, the fact is that many of them probably don't have the time to do so.
I'd hazard a guess that many of them also don't have the wherewithal when it
comes to web design (yes, I know that there are programs out there to do it
for you, but I'll get to that in a minute), nor do they have the time to learn
HTML in order to do all of the cool tricks. GW's website being the example you
used, I'd bet my collection of minis that the initial development on that was
probably done by an outside contractor OR possibly designed and implemented by
the full time web guy they have working for them (I've met him, or at least
the guy who was doing it two years ago or so). Either of those solutions are
not going to be easy for a small company run on the side by a couple of guys
who have to put food on the table, etc., due to the amount of money that it
would cost to implement either one. I'd assume that purchasing web design
software would represent a significant amount of money that could be used
elsewhere in the company. I'd like to think that I can speak with some
authority on this particular subject, as in addition to my full time teaching
position, baby on the way in about a month or so, and myriad other projects
I've been attempting to run both a small computer business (fairly
successfully, if small in scale) and a small business in which I buy and sell
used minis, and also parts for the same (mainly Battletech, so if anyone out
there has some they want to get rid of, let me know:). I have been wanting to
throw together a web page for my minis business to show off what I've got, but
even though I am fairly well versed both in the use of Microsoft Front Page
and HTML coding, I find that I simply don't have the time to do it. It's one
thing to throw a color pic or two up on Ebay or my homepage, it's quite
another to take all of the pics and lay out a catalog page for the several
hundred items I currently have laying around.
> If you want to start a small company that sells some figures, go for
Depends upon how many figs you're talking about. It certainly isn't hard to
scan, but having done it, I can say that it takes a bit more work than that to
get something presentable, and scans really aren't the best way to go to show
off the detail on the mini. Usually what I do when I scan is to adjust the
color, depth, brightness, etc. of the pic, and then crop it to a (hopefully)
uniform size. That is, however, the easy part, as laying out a webpage can
appear quite daunting to a beginner. I've done it enough to know that I'm not
good enough to do so easily every time, and so end up tweaking for quite some
time to get it right.
> When a computer with scanner can be had for less then $500 in the US
No question. I've often been frustrated by this. Eureka Miniatures, are you
listening?!?! :)
> That is what I mean by a company acting like it is still the 70's.
Only
> way you could see a figure then was by paper catalog or in ads in
Which sort of brings me back to a point I meant to make earlier. Most
wargamers that I have met (and by extension, company owners) aren't
necessarily expecting to make big bucks in producing their game/minis.
They are in it for the love of what they do, and any money they make is
certainly
gravy to them, but they're not always the most business-savvy when it
comes to expanding the company a'la GW (that's not to cast aspersions on any
of them or what they do, they just don't necessarily have the same resources
as a larger company would). This tends to be endemic to all small operations
of this type. The only time you really see them take off is when the "suits"
take control of a company. Of course, by that time, it can be argued that the
company in question has lost some of what made it unique, which I think is
well illustrated by both the growth of GW and the phenomenal growth
experienced by TSR in the late 1980's-early 90's. I guess it's just up
to each individual out there to decide on what is better: having a small
company that may not be as successful or flashy, or a larger company that has
all of those color pics but doesn't give a damn what you think about the game.
I think in that case I'd probably stick with the smaller company. I'm on a
Warhammer 40K mailing list right now as well as this one, and I can tell you
with certainty that no GW employees EVER post there or answer questions
directly. They may lurk, but don't come out of the shadows. I much prefer the
situation of having Jon or KR (or any of the others) available here to answer
questions, comments, etc. Note that I'm not saying that they're not
successful, but their companies aren't as big as GW, and are, on the whole,
much more responsive. It's nice to be able to email KR to ask him about an
order, and have him get back to me personally, versus calling GW and getting
the mail order troll of the minute who can't tell me any more about my order
than the last ten guys that I talked to.
> In fact, I will put my money (well time really) where my mouth is. Any
Good for you! I hope they do take you up on it.
> >>( Rant, rant, rant......gets off soap box)
Agreed. Hopefully someone will take you up on that!
I am somewhat with Daniel here.
I understand wanting to present a professional appearance on a web site. But I
believe most gamers would be thrilled to have their miniatures pictured on the
miniatures company's web site. I believe most would GLADLY allow their
pictures to be used for the high price of giving them credit for the
paint/picture.
I believe that miniature companies would benefit greatly from this, almost
free, source of pictures. While some of the pictures and paint are of limited
skill (speaking of mine, not particularly anyone else's), displaying a
miniature with a mediocre paint job is better than making the potential
customer guess at what the miniature looks like.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip].
> OK, I will try one more time. This started as a discussion on
[snip]
> If you want to start a small company that sells some figures, go for
[snip]
> In fact, I will put my money (well time really) where my mouth is. Any
[snip]
> :-) In the end I think we all want the same thing. To see our beloved
> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
At the moment we have a policy of showing pictures of (mostly) unpainted
models on our (Brigade Models) site. In this way the gamer sees exactly
what he gets in the flesh, rather than what an expert modeller / painter
could do with what could possibly be a very average model. I've been fooled
before, even when buying from shows, into buying what turn out to be average
models from a stand because they were displayed with a fantastic paint job.
When we get around to putting up pictures of painted stuff, the unpainted
pictures will remain so that prospective buyers can see exactly what they're
getting.
From: "Tony Francis" <tony.francis@kuju.com>
> At the moment we have a policy of showing pictures of (mostly)
unpainted
> models on our (Brigade Models) site.
I agree with Tony, I'd like to see bare metal--or better, perhaps, a
figure
Tony Francis said
> > At the moment we have a policy of showing pictures of (mostly)
unpainted
> > models on our (Brigade Models) site.
and Chris deBoe
> I agree with Tony, I'd like to see bare metal--or better, perhaps, a
I have to agree most heartily with these sentiments. painted figures can be
very misleading.. I speak from my own position as "a bit of a painter" trying
to convince other gamers that my old ancient figures are really minifig 15mm
"blobs" from the 70's. I much prefer to see plain figures but highlighted to
show potential as described by Chris. On the other hand once having seen the
figures it is a nice idea for manufacturers to encourage users to submit
painted examples for a gallery.. being a remotely sited gamer I very seldom
see figures other than my
own..
Seeing what others can do with figures is such an inspiration. I still carry
wonderous memories of visiting a UK convention three years ago and going into
orbit over the figure painting standards on display. it was my first such
experience in 20 years. My memories were of often unpainted tabletops and half
painted armies.. what a superb improvement. This perhaps impinges on another
post re GW.. for all their bad points, for all the damage they have probably
done to regular gaming, what one cannot take away from them is the effect they
have had on both the quality of professional figures and the level of painting
they have inspired in their army of followers. Let me say that I consider
myself a quality painter. I learned the art of dry brushing from a 13 year old
nephew who was taught the technique in a GW shop.. not all that is GW is
destructive..
> on 2/13/01 8:03, Chris DeBoe at LASERLIGHT@QUIXNET.NET wrote:
> At the moment we have a policy of showing pictures of (mostly)
unpainted
> models on our (Brigade Models) site.
I'm in agreement with this also. Whether it's a dark wash or a white priming,
using this type of sample always the customer to see what the raw figure looks
like. I personally like the white method better for catalogs, however it's a
pain to shot as it requires that lighting be at much lower levels to avoid
wash out. This is the way I provide sample shots for the web site of Quality
Castings, a manufacturer specializing in WW2 and Modern 15mm vehicles and
infantry.
That being said a Gallery is only slightly less important. Seeing how others
paint figures often inspires old hands and neophytes alike to try new
techniques, to take that next step in painting quality or to try new
combinations of coloring. I've been painting for 25 years this year and I just
made some significant changes to the way I paint over the past two
years (and some thought I'd never change). Besides a gallery does help
to boosts the sales a little, something that most business are inclined to
like. ;-)
> Kevin Walker wrote:
We don't have anything in the way of gallery pages at the moment because
I don't have many photos of well-painted models (I seem to spend all of
my available free time either casting or making new masters). However, if
there's anyone out there with nicely finished models of ours that they want to
photograph and send to me (off list, of course, to
> We don't have anything in the way of gallery pages at the moment
Great idea but not sure I could take the rejection:)
Get your standard "I'm sorry but your style of painting isn't what we are
looking for"
e-mail replies ready :)
> In fact, I will put my money (well time really) where my mouth is. Any
A few of us on the list did just this a few years ago. After hearing about
Pendraken's Space Dreadnought 3000 line (now owned by Kallistra), we contacted
them and offered them a web presence to get there figures into new markets.
They sent us minis and we got pics and put them up. Here are the remnants of
the page:
http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~seidl/pendraken/Start.html
We called ourselves the 'M Collective' (Jim Bell, Mike Miserendino and Matt
Seidl were the other members) and had some neat plans to do more but it didn't
work out. By the time we were ready to take on another line of minis, many of
the companies without any web presence now had web pages up (though with few
if any pics).
> At the moment we have a policy of showing pictures of (mostly)
In fact Brigade Models is a web site that I could use to show what I would
like to see. I looked through their offerings and saw some I loved and some I
did not. In the end I found a few I would like to order.
Great Job Brigade Models!
Jeremy:
***
Great idea but not sure I could take the rejection:)
Get your standard "I'm sorry but your style of painting isn't what we are
looking for"
e-mail replies ready :)
***
You want rejection? I've been playing around with some designs that don't look
half bad to me (doesn't take much). Given Schoon's success, I actually
considered firing a few pics to Tony if I ever got something finished. Worse,
the design for which I had highest hopes suggested, to me, a 'conjectural'
Swiss Confed capital. His turf, even if it's not in Encyclopedia Galactica, so
I'd feel I'd have to get his ok first.
Probability of rejection from two quarters. Heck, two continents... ;->=
Dean:
***
We called ourselves the 'M Collective' (Jim Bell, Mike Miserendino and Matt
Seidl were the other members) and had some neat plans to do more but it didn't
work out. By the time we were ready to take on another line of minis, many of
the companies without any web presence now had web pages up (though with few
if any pics).
***
I recall the M Collective fondly, though I never realized you and Jim were
party to the effort. Hope you got a payback on your effort from the samples.
Wasn't near proper recompense compared to how I appreciated it.
By the by, was the 'Secret pictures of the new Talliscian fleet on maneuvers.'
Pic done with figs washed? I'd assumed it was just a good job of lighting.
It's tough, but bare metal CAN be shot showing details.
And, oh yeah, you never call, you never write... ;->=
Daniel:
***
In fact Brigade Models is a web site that I could use to show what I would
like to see. I looked through their offerings and saw some I loved and some I
did not. In the end I found a few I would like to order.
Great Job Brigade Models!
***
Amen on all counts! And someday I WILL order from the majority that did appeal
to me. Really. Sort of like my finally getting a working campaign system, or
all my lead painted, or... *sigh*
Hmm.... best close this before someone else makes a comment inspiring me to
further blather.
> --- Chris DeBoe <LASERLIGHT@QUIXNET.NET> wrote:
unpainted
> > models on our (Brigade Models) site.
For display purposes, nothing beats a blackwash of thinned black enamel.
> On Tue, 13 February 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> I understand wanting to present a professional appearance on a web
Bear in mind how much some companies charge for throughput on a web site. Mine
is pretty good (over at Vex.Net), but some are pretty expensive. Some small
companies won't be able to afford one or two hundred dollars a month for a
little bit of Internet traffic.
Of course, it depends on how much traffic they get. Some companies find that
they actually more than make up for it with Internet orders. There are also
the free sites (Geocities, Xoom, FortuneCity, etc.) but they aren't really
viable for a company to rely on.
That having been said, I suspect the biggest problem is that small companies
really don't understand what they can get from the Web. Let's face it, even
Jon doesn't have a formal, GZG web site with pictures of the minis. I have
gone to the GZG catalogue site, but since the move and redesign, many of the
pictures seem to be missing. This is unfortunate, because I have bought
figures from Jon because the pictures were on that site!
> I believe that miniature companies would benefit greatly from this,
In fact, you don't have to present the figure painted at all! What you do is a
blackwash on the unpainted figure. Just do a black wash on the bare metal, and
all the detail will pop up. Then, photograph. People will see what appears to
be the bare figure, but with all the detailing shining through. That's all
anyone really needs for a web based catalogue.
> agoodall@canada.com wrote:
> On Tue, 13 February 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
There are also the free sites (Geocities, Xoom, FortuneCity, etc.) but they
aren't really viable for a company to rely on.
> That having been said, I suspect the biggest problem is that small
I don't think that is unique to small companies or even "cottage industries."
That said, I have considered a plan similar to the "players
scanning to get web images up" in that I do web-database work and have
considered farming out my services to get paid in figures...:) I have had
thoughts on tying display to stock... all the standard stuff, and with free
toosl to boot. Never had the time to draw up a rational proposal or do the
work, though.:(
> I believe that miniature companies would benefit greatly from this,