I have about an 1 1/2 hour drive to work each day (don't ask about the
drive
home) - so I probably listen to more news than most. I heard about the
skirmish - assuming you mean the one that got two Aussie's wounded (one
was serious in the neck region) and two Indo militia killed. Indo is claiming
the militia were actually police and on their side of the border - i.e.
West Timor.
I haven't heard of any other skirmishes in East Timor - so if there
have been it didn't make the news cut.
This was on the local NPR station. There were scheduled to have another
round-table talk today about East Timor, but with the coup in Pak it was
tabled for a bit.
To even get this a bit on-topic. This would make for an interesting SG2
scenario. Outfit vet/elite troops with secondary weapons to advance a
claim against a neighbor. It is not an "act of war", since they are obviously
just "freedom fighters" against an oppressive government. The "insurgents"
have
the training, morale, and fairly directed goals - but they are missing
their
support equipment and probably don't have top-of-the-line weapons (to
make
them seem more ragtag-like).
Think Pak actions in Casmere (sp?) recently.
Chip
Excerpts from mail: 13-Oct-99 [OT] Re: InterFET by "Chip
Dunning"@spectra-r
> To even get this a bit on-topic. This would make for an interesting
have
> the training, morale, and fairly directed goals - but they are missing
Kashmir, I think.
Good idea! You could do a number of "deniable" missions in the same vein.
Capturing one of the "freedom fighters" would be a major goal for the
"oppressive government"'s troops, because it might allow them to expose the
charade. Of course, that could spark a war, so maybe some of the government
troops might not *want* to make such a capture....different parts of the
government force might thus have different objectives.
> To even get this a bit on-topic. This would make for an interesting SG2
have
> the training, morale, and fairly directed goals - but they are missing
To give a little 'fog of war', inform one side where they are told the border
between the two forces are, and tell the otherside something else. And when
one side 'crosses the border', they are in violation of the treaty and may be
fired upon (of course you'll have to contrive some reason to make
one side or the other 'cross the border - maybe one of the Combat Babes
or
something, tied to a tree... ;-)
Mk
G'day Adrian,
There is a battalion group of NZers in East Timor. Tere's a complete run down
of who's there, some images etc at
http://easttimor.defence.gov.au/interfet.html
but basically its:
Australia 3 x Frigates 1 x Landing Ship 3 x Landing Craft 1 x Tanker 1 x Jet
Cat 1 x Diving Team Battalion Group 1 Battalion Group 2 Battalion Group 3 12 x
Blackhawk
9 x C130
2 x 707
Brazil MP Company
Canada 1 x Tanker 2 x Helo Company Group NSE 1 x Construction Troop 2 x C130
Air Support Team
France 1 x Frigate 1 x Landing Ship (Landing Support) Surgical Team Protection
Element 3 x C130 3 x Puma HeloÃs
Germany Casualty Evacuation Support
2 x C160
Ireland HQ Element, Security Platoon
Italy
1 x Landing Ship Company Group 1 x C130 4 x HeloÃs
Malaysia Staff Officers
New Zealand 1 x Frigate 1 x Tanker Battalion Group (6 x HeloÃs) 2 x C130
Norway Staff Officers
Philippines Humanitarian TF
Republic of South Korea Battalion Group
Singapore 2 x Landing ships 1 x Medical Team
Thailand 3 x Vessels 1 x Task Group 2 x C130
United Kingdom 1 x Company Group 2 x C130
United States of America 1 x Cruiser 1 x Helo Support Ship 2 x Support Ships
Logistic Group J2 & J6 Staff CMOC Signals Company 3 x C130 1 x C12 1 x EP3
.
> G'day Adrian,
How's i' goin', eh?
(our national greetings, yes? :-)
> There is a battalion group of NZers in East Timor. Tere's a complete
thanks for the listing - I've not seen one as complete, yet.
the canadian "tanker" I see listed, I assume is the support ship we sent. It
does a bunch of stuff besides tanking, including carrying and supporting the
operations of two helicopters. It is also capable of carrying the vehicles,
equipment and supplies for an infantry battalion, though I don't know what
they loaded it with before it left Canada...
> NSE
Who is NSE? (this is probably obvious and I'll feel silly asking,
but....)
Thanks Beth,
G'day Adrian,
> Who is NSE? (this is probably obvious and I'll feel silly asking,
No idea I only know they're from Canada and they're land forces, sorry. By the
way Kenyah and Mozambique have also sent troops, or are in the process of
sending them, as well. I guess the communications guys are having a real job
of it!
> Thanks Beth,
No problem, after that break I was sane enough to sort out my MATLAB problem,
so you really did me the favour;)
Cheers
Beth
> I have about an 1 1/2 hour drive to work each day (don't ask about the
West
> Timor.
You are actually combining two separate actions there. The first, in which
the two Australians were wounded, was an ambush by pro-Indonesian
militia on a convoy. The second was a skirmish on the border were an
Indonesian policeman was killed.
The thing is, we're not that good. It's just that everybody else sucks. (aNavy
> SEALs quote) wrote:
...
> To give a little 'fog of war', inform one side where they are told the
Or simply assign each side standard border patrol orders. The squad is
expected to remain within 5m of the border (on the right side) while
patrolling along it.
---
> Chip Dunning wrote:
That was 2 seperate incidents:
In the first, a group of SAS were escorting an aid convoy. A sniper opened up
with an automatic weapon from a tree within 40 metres. 2 Australians wounded (
one with a miraculously nonfatal wound in the neck, the other with a really
nasty leg wound requiring extensive surgical reconstruction). 2 militia killed
in the immediate counterattack.
In the second, an Australian patrol approaching the border with West Timor was
fired upon, and returned fire. Exactly who it was on the Indo
side is still questionable - some guys in T-shirts (probably militia)
were mixed in with both Indonesian Army regulars and Indonesian Police.
According to Indonesian reports, one policeman was killed. Latest gen from
them says that it was Indonesian Army who fired first. Frankly though, if they
said that the sun rises in the east, I'd still want a second source.
The latter incident is notable because it was captured on film, by 2 separate
cameras. Also, the Indonesian forces were working from a Dutch Map from the
1920s, while the Australians were using Indonesian military maps (to avoid
exactly this type of problem where the border is a bit diffuse). The Indo
local commander will be in really Deep Doodoo as he admits on film that the
Australians were still in East Timor, contrary to the Official Line. Guess he
was just elated not to have been hit (quite understandable) and wasn't
thinking of political considerations, just the facts.
A good source is http://www.abc.net.au/news/etimor/default.htm
(Donning my Boy's Own Annual Amateur Intelligence Analyst hat with Magic
Decoder Ring in Brim here)
In theory, you should be able to get a balanced view by going to an Indonesian
source such as Antara or Kompas. Certainly they should be looked at, as what
they don't say is often more revealing than what they do say. For the record,
I have no connection and never have had with any Australian Intelligence
organisation, BTW.
Antara (the Official News Agency) actually has some articles about East Timor,
but requires registration (which funnily enough, I'm a bit loath to do)
http://www.antara.co.id/english.asp
Apart from Antara (the government's mouthpiece) Censorship's pretty heavy,
though far lighter than it was even a few years ago.
http://www.kompas.com/kompas-cetak/9910/13/ENGLISH/tni.htm
has an interesting view of the second incident, not quite in accordance with
what can be seen on the 2 films (one Australian Army, the other an Independent
News Service).
There are other Indonesian news services - LookSmart has a category of
them - but as they're mainly in Bahasi Indonesian, and Babelfish only
groks European languages, they're of less use to most.
I'd rather not go into how this relates to FMA or whatever, as it wouldn't
feel right: some poor bastards have got themselves killed for just being near
some idiot in their group who decided to shoot at armed