For those who care:
2nd Lieutenant = Ensign 1st Lieutenant = Lieutenant Junior Grade Captain =
Lieutenant Major = Lieutenant Commander Lieutenant Colonel = Commander Colonel
= Captain Brigadier General = Rear Admiral (Lower) Major General = Rear
Admiral (Upper) Lieutenant General = Vice Admiral General = Admiral
Schoon
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:47:06 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
In-Reply-To: <3A34F581.90408@ice.net>
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<3A2C222B.ABB975C8@brewer.to> <3A2D868C.1B256632@sympatico.ca>
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G'day Noel,
> (Thanks, btw Beth, I noticed the pics on your site
Glad to be of service;)
> Anyway, are than any standard rules for the use
There have been a few ideas put around, but I'm not sure if any of them have
made it on to a webpage.
> My thoughts pretty much have them pegged to
We gave them 12" (6" was just too slow). They need 6 hits to kill them and
infantry can have a pop at them (been watching too much Roughnecks to say no
to that). Good in close combat, pulling 4 chits, but they also got limited
fire capability (as Derek's SG bugs have a gun bug per squad) and they pulled
2 chits for that. In games set on bug worlds they also have tunnels (mapped
out by the bug player before the game on a piece of paper) and they can use
these like underground roads.
Hope that helps
Beth
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Elizabeth Fulton
c/o CSIRO Division of Marine Research
GPO Box 1538 HOBART TASMANIA 7001 AUSTRALIA
Phone (03) 6232 5018 International +61 3 6232 5018
Fax 03 6232 5053 International +61 3 6232 5053
email: beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au
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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:02:32 EST
Subject: Re: [OT] Military Rank Comparison
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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In a message dated 12/11/00 5:34:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> s_schoon@pacbell.net writes:
> or those who care:
Is this USN? When I was in there was no Upper and Lower Rear Admiral. Rear
Admiral equated to Major General, and Commodore equated to Brigadier. There
however were no Commodores except in wartime. Effectively the Navy skipped
that rank and used it as a title for a senior Captain commanding a squadron.
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
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References: <200012112055.PAA26495@okura.cowell.org>
Subject: Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
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It depends on if your looking for an arbitrarily balanced campaign or a
realistic campaign. Since stargrunt 2 does not have any built in arbitrary
attempt at balance, it is not well suited for such a campaign, but a campaign
where you have limited forces, keep track of casualties, etc? Such a campaign
would be well suited to SG2.
shogakusha
[quoted original message omitted]
> >Is this USN?
Dirty Little Secrets (James Dunnigan, don't know the year offhand but it's
been a while) says that when the USN decided to drop Commodore in favor of
Rear Adm (Lower), a senator involved said "If 'commodore' was good enough for
Perry and John Paul Jones, it's good enough for soome guys I never heard of!"
He was, evidently, not listened to.
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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:25:34 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
Subject: [DS/FT] CAV
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G'day guys,
Have any of you seen the new CAV stuff from Reaper miniatures? They've got a
site up at
http://www.cavhq.com/main.htm
The miniatures look pretty nice, haven't had a time to look over the rules
yet, so can't comment there (got some demo ones up on the site). The bit
that might interest FT players though is that under their "Galaxy Tour"
they've got a galaxy map with jump routes and jump points marked on, could be
very handy for campaigns.
Cheers
Beth
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Elizabeth Fulton
c/o CSIRO Division of Marine Research
GPO Box 1538 HOBART TASMANIA 7001 AUSTRALIA
Phone (03) 6232 5018 International +61 3 6232 5018
Fax 03 6232 5053 International +61 3 6232 5053
email: beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au
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Thanks for the reminder, Beth.
The maps are certainly as usable as old Traveller or the old Starlord map, and
now we've got spiffy color printers at work to make it worthy printing my own.
I'd picked up a printed copy of the rules at GenCon (handed out for free by
Reaper), but hadn't looked closely at it. I've a 'thing' about anthropomorphic
vehicles. Walkers, ok; humanoid giant robots, just can't quite accept.
However, I noticed on the site they are going to have other vehicles too. I
wish them luck; after AoG's crash-and-burn with Starseige: Rebellion,
it's a gutsy move.
Speaking of which, AoG has announced they are clearing out the last of their
S:R vehicles in a grab bag mode. No guarantee on selection, but I did
get Bruce Graw to say he'd take 'no-HERC' orders. ;->=
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Subject: Re: [OT] Military Rank Comparison
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> By the way, I believe I once heard of a convention of giving a
Heinlein (who was in the US Navy for a bit) had that bit in Starship Troopers
(the book, of course) about the MI captain being referred to by the Navy as
"major" whilst aboard ship. Don't know about calling other navy captains
"commodore."
This isn't evidence either why about your hallucinations, of course.
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> On 11 Dec 2000 16:41 GMT KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de writes:
Aren't they all? <grin>
> Sub-terranean ? Sub-glacial ?
Insert tounge in cheek
Think Victorian steam punk modernized...
Remove tounge in cheek
Gracias, Triphibious/Glenn (first war game played 1959)
Triphibious Marines = Nektons. Not all Frogs are French, or even Human!
Nektons, be all the Marine you can be! Resistance is EVERYTHING! [And
MANDATORY!]
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On Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:31:57 +1100 "Alan and Carmel Brain"
> <aebrain@dynamite.com.au> writes:
Seriously, there are some islands that have never been mapped since. Of
course, if we "need" to intervene there guess whose fault that will
be....
Gracias, Triphibious/Glenn (first war game played 1959)
Triphibious Marines = Nektons. Not all Frogs are French, or even Human!
Nektons, be all the Marine you can be! Resistance is EVERYTHING! [And
MANDATORY!]
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Subject: Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
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In a message dated 12/11/00 5:23:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> ShldWulf@aol.com writes:
<< There is always using something like the old game "Cerberus" which I've
seen used for StarFire planetary combat. (I always thought it would be good
for a combined game of Dirtside II and SG2 >>
I'd like to hear more about this game. What scale was it, what was map like,
how did rules work? Jed Docherty
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Subject: DS2 --> SG2 harmonization
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 00:03:13 -0500
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Hi all
It has occured to me as I browse my rules for these two wonderful games that
there exist a number of incongruities between the rulesets and for one
interested in harmonizing them, some method of addressing them needs
undertaken.
I will outline them, and ask for anyone to point out any I've missed.
1) Time scale as it pertains to movement DS2 claims 15 min turns, SG2 roughly
5 min. The problem is with infantry
movement -- In SG2, a normal unit can patrol move (not combat move) 360m
in 3 turns. In DS2, the infantry element only moves 200m. If these guys were
combat moving, they'd have a maximum move of 720m (unlikely admittedly) not
counting exploits or multiple activations. And PA could move twice that
-
about 1440m (as opposed to 600m in DS2 plus 600m if CAing). So PA move rates
might not be far off, but infantry in DS2 are slow.
2) Use of quality of unit In SG2, this determines weapon range for infantry
elements. In DS2, the determiner is weapon type.
3) Different morale rules and effects of suppresion/under fire
For example, a unit with 50% casualties behaves very differently (or can)
under the two systems. Especially if the casualty accrual was slow.
4) Missing systems
DS2 is missing GMS/P. SG2 is missing AutoGLs, HMGs, APFCs, PDS.
5) Missing vehicle systems (related to 4) DS2 includes stealth to lower target
signature making a DS2 vehicle with high stealth hard to hit with GMS. This
system makes no appearance in SG2 and so the vehicle is easy to hit, and its
PDS and APFC don't help because they aren't there either. This makes a viable
design in one system not so viable in the other.
6. Varying vehicle construction rules. Size 6 and 7 vehicles in DS2 but not
SG2. Engineers and GMS and LAD teams take up a bit of extra space, but no hint
of that is given in SG2. There are also items relating to APSWs, weapon fits,
etc.
7. Missing command re-activation in DS2
One of the strongpoints of SG2 is the ability of the commander to
impact the battle with careful choices of re-activations. Such a thing
seems to be missing from DS2.
8. Weapon range incongruities SG2 limits vehicle weapons to 600m vs small
targets. DS2 makes no such limit.
Undoubtedly, I'm missing some. But the nice thing is, since these systems have
SO much in common... it ought to be a fairly elegant bit of legerdemain to put
them together, not so much a hack as a tweak. I'll have more specific thoughts
on how I (for myself) plan to bridge these gaps as I think about this over the
holidays.
As an added bonus, I note that DS2 and SG2 vehicle construction rules are
showing their age. With FB2, the FTers tossed away artificial limitations on
hull sizes that tied them to set sizes and thus made them frequently redesign
ships from scratch if something didn't fit. In SG2 and DS2, based on size
class, we have the same "fit" issues. We have the practical consideration
that, unlike FT, these size classes have some game impact so we can't do away
with them. But what we can do is get around that problem quite elegantly.
Construct your DS2 or SG2 vehicle by figuring how many spaces you need
(Andy, let's take the LAV-25 I picked off your sight, an illegal
design).
Want to carry 2 infantry elements (8 guys) plus a 25mm chaingun (RFAC/1
in a
turret) and an APSW/SAW. So, we have a class 2 vehicle, which normally
has 10 cap points holding 8 points of infantry and 3 points of RFAC... ARGH!
Either we have an illegal design or we make it size 3 and try to figure out
what to do with 4 more capacity points. Senseless. Instead, just design an 11
capacity vehicle. Then it all fits.
But, wait! The universe collapses! What size class is it? Help! How do the
point costs work? Argh!
When calculating the basic hull cost, instead of multiplying size class by 5,
just use the capacity points you plan (say in this case 11). Then that'll work
into BVP and it all works nicely.
Now, wait! How do we solve size class?
Cap Size class Description 0 0 PA
1 0.5 Motorcycle/Cavalry, Terminator Armour
2 0.5 Motorcycle/SideCar, Heavy PA/Heavy Gear
3-7 1 Jeeps, FAV
8-12 2 Small to mid sized APCs, Civilian Trucks, ARVs
13-17 3 Larger APCs, Small MBTs
18-22 4 Normal MBTs, Big Ass APC (Phalanx - in SG2, illegal!)
23-27 5 Big MBTs, Small Interface landers
28-32 6 Interface landers, super tanks, transports, etc
33-37 7 The biggest of the big
38+ Oversize
Note, this now lets me build the above LAV, or Jon's illegal Phalanx design
from the back of the SG2 rules (2 x DFFG/1 in turrets + 16 infantry is
either 21 or 22 capacity points, no way it would fit in 20 as specified in
the book....).
This lets me build the LIPPC as a 12 point target class 2 object and mount
a GMS/L and a class 1 gun while still having room for 7 infantry.
You can see the advantages of this system - the same advantage as
tossing
the arbitrary size limits in FT2 - makes it much easier to fit things
you know should fit in a given model in the size class the model appears to
be.
Of course, the other answer is to just build the mini as you see it and say
to heck with the rules, but that doesn't seem right in points-based DS2
where you should pay a few more points for the extra size!
Comments? Feedback?
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From: "Owen Glover" <oglover@bigpond.net.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:05:48 +1100
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I always seem to miss these threads due to the Time Zone differences!
We've taken a number of approaches although they all revolve around an umpired
system.
1. We utilised the old GDW board-games
Assault/BootsnSaddles/Cheiftan to
manage the upper level movement. When the units came into contact we could
transfer to a table and play out a game; unist invloved would reflect counters
that were on game board. If no game was possible the Umpire let the CRT
resolve it. Fairly easy to allow US, BRITS, SOVBLOC etc represent the GZG
nationalitites.
2. Using a map based game where each commander issued his orders which wer e
passed onto the Ref to resolve locations for contacts. This was very much like
your GM resolution. That was our last Esperance Campaign whcih we found to be
very successful although we did run out of steam. No resource management
required but there were effective Zones of Control and Resupply. Distance from
Combat Support ended up translating into an effect on CL or troops available
for a game.
3. We are curently trialling the computer game Brigade Combat Team as our
Tactical level trooop manager. At the Operational Level we are using a GIS
mapping tool; AGIS (www.agismap.com) which is a very impressive tool that
allows multiple layers of data. The beauty of it is that you can have accurate
location tracking (in Lat and Long) on the map; these are simply
space de-limited text files that can imported/exported to Excel! It
still requires a ref to collate Red and Blue force locations; he receives a
data file from each player which he places into HIS AGIS display as different
layers. When opposing units come into contact a game is resolved! You can use
either BCT or another game; TACOPs to do quick resolution if a table top game
isn't possible! BCT is very customisable from a Weapon, Vehicle, Unit point of
view but
a
little complicated. TACOPs is simple to configure basic orbats but weapons ad
vehicles are fixed. Currently they only support US, CA, AUS, NZ and OPFOR kit.
Hope this is some value?
Cheers, Owen
PS Our new campaign is based on Borneo/Sarawak/Sabah and is called
Konfrontasi 2020!! Gonna be a lot of fun!
> -----Original Message-----
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> To bring this kinda on topic: has anyone done up a list of ranks for
I have done so for the LLAR, see:
http://home.t-online.de/home/kh.ranitzsch/lira/liramilitary-en.html
Greetings Karl Heinz
From - Wed Dec 13 16:39:11 2000
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: DS2 --> SG2 harmonization
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:28:31 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
360m
> in
[Bri] It abstracts out nicely though. In most SG2 games the troops are
not moving at full speed every turn. They stop short to take advantage of
terrain. Much of this terrain is abstracted out of DS2 (too small). So
2/3rd
of full movement makes sense (200m/300m) over 1 DS turn or 3 SG turns.
DS2 does figure a double movement for close assaults (combat move) without all
the hassel of checking to see if they tripped (low roll for combat move). And
you forget the other side of the coin, in SG2 vehicles move MUCH TOO SLOWLY.
In DS2 Grav units can move 1500m over normal terrain. This would translate
into a move of 25" base movement in SG2. I understand that this is not
desireable in SG2 for purposes of game balance. You would set up the table and
whoosh the enemy would be in your flank (not a desirable possition). I can
live with the movement differences. I could see allowing units in DS2 to do
double movement if they forego thier combat action, but that would be a major
change to the rules (grav vehicles would be able to move
30").
> 2) Use of quality of unit
[Bri] Again, this is abstracted down. In SG2, the abilty
to hit is decreased with range. In DS2 there is only one
range, but to-hit is based on Quality. I guess you could
change and use range bands, but then you would need to shift the roll for
effective fire DOWN (as there is no size die to shift up) or increase the chit
total needed to kill the element. Range bands in SG are Elite 12"; Veteran
10"; Regular 8"; Green 6"; and Untrained 4". Each 1" in DS2 = 10" in SG2. So
lets take look: Range Range Band for Quality: Elite Veteran Regular Green
Untrained 1" 1 1 2 2 4 2" 2 2 3 4 5
3" 3 3 4 5 -
4" 4 4 5 - -
5" 5 5 - - -
6" 5 - - - -
And Effective fire (shift down per range band) would be: Range Die for
Effective Fire Elite Veteran Regular Green Untrained 1" d12 d10 d8* d6* d4*
2" d10 d8 d4 - -
3" d8 d6 - - -
4" d6 d4 - - -
5" d4 - - - -
6" d4 - - - -
*Adjusted up to give basic roll for effective fire in close range band. A
strict match would drop these values by 1 or 2 die types. The other option
would be to increase the damage needed to kill the target element (by 1 per
range band):
Range Damage Needed to Kill Militia/Line/PA:
Elite Veteran Regular Green Untrained
1" 3/4/5 3/4/5 4/5/6 4/5/6 7/8/9
2" 4/5/6 5/6/7 5/6/7 7/8/9 8/9/-
3" 6/7/8 6/7/8 7/8/9 8/9/- -
4" 7/8/9 7/8/9 8/9/- - -
5" 8/9/- 8/9/- - - -
6" 8/9/- - - - -
Subtract 1 needed to kill a Militia and Add 1 to kill Power Armor. With PA and
ASPW drawing 3 chits and all others drawing 2 chits, this makes infantry all
but immune except at the closest range bands. Both of the above are actually
LESS than the standard DS2 rules. So infantry ranges would need to be REDUCED.
> 3) Different morale rules and effects of suppresion/under fire
> 4) Missing systems
[snip]
> 6. Varying vehicle construction rules.
[snip]
> 7. Missing command re-activation in DS2
[Bri] In DS2:
Systems: Max Range* # Chits Valid Chits
HELs 36" 2 Yellow
RFACs, MDCs, HVCs Medium 2 Yellow
RFAC/1 12" 2 Yellow
RFAC/2 18" 2 Yellow
MDC/1 16" 2 Yellow
MDC/2 24" 2 Yellow
MDC/3 36" 2 Yellow
MDC/4 42" 2 Yellow
MDC/5 48" 2 Yellow
HVC/3 24" 2 Yellow
HVC/4 27" 2 Yellow
HVC/5 30" 2 Yellow
HKPs, GMSs, IAVRs Ineffective vs Infantry
DFFGs Medium 3 Red
DFFG/1 8" 3 Red
DFFG/2 12" 3 Red
DFFG/3 16" 3 Red
DFFG/4 20" 3 Red
DFFG/5 24" 3 Red
SLAMs Close Normal Yellow
SLAM/3 12 3 Yellow
SLAM/4 12 4 Yellow
SLAM/5 12 5 Yellow
*vs Infantry. Medium except for HEL and SLAMs. So SG2 heavy weapon ranges vs
infantry should be increased. DS2 abstracts this by reducing range (but not as
much as SG2), number of chits drawn, and chit validity
> Undoubtedly, I'm missing some. [snip]
[Bri] Heavy Weapons ranges vs point targets (i.e. vehicle
to vehicle combat) in SG2 need to be brought into line with DS2 ranges.
> As an added bonus, I note that DS2 and SG2 vehicle construction rules
[Bri] Why not just divide the capacity points by 5 (round
up) to get size? All that you did above was to shift the size by 2 capacity
points (12 instead of 10; 17 instead of 15; etc.). Dividing by 5 keeps it
consistant with the rules as written (and does not invaidate any existing
legal vehicles). [The NAC Phalanx would still need to be corrected to size 5
for targeting.] But I like your idea of construction using capacity points
instead of starting with the vehicle size.
> Note, this now lets me build the above LAV, or Jon's illegal Phalanx
-----End Original Message-----
My comments, above, marked by [Bri]
In doing conversions, we need to make sure not to unbalance the games or slow
them down too much.
The danger in altering SG2 is that game balance may change (the game is
already the slowest of the GZG games).
The main danage in DS2 is slowing the game down. Adding too many fiddley
measurements or exception rules will kill the game just because of its scale
(number of elements).
---
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org/
---
From - Wed Dec 13 16:39:11 2000
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: How do Reinforcements work?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:57:30 -0600
From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
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This might seem like an odd question, but in reality, how does reinforcement
work? Are newly trained troops given to each organizational leader who, each
in turn, allocates them to the leaders
under him? Are troops ever/often moved "laterally" to reinforce other
groups? Are partial strength groups ever/often merged together into
full strength groups? At what levels?
(The technical term escapes me-- by group, I mean an organizational
structure such as a company or platoon, etc...)
From - Wed Dec 13 16:39:12 2000
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Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20001211151948.00a381c0@pop.hba.marine.csiro.au>
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Hey, us Canucks get even less for our dollar!
> At 03:21 PM 12/11/00 +1100, you wrote:
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Subject: Re: [FT, SG] Tell the world, I've updated the page
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> Brian Bell wrote:
Being recently diagnosed diabetic myself (three months), I sympathise with
you. I hope you get better soon. I found that taking Omega 3 fish oil capsules
and regular exercise (30 minutes walking every day) make a world of
difference. This might help you as well.