[OT] Linking Ammo

[quoted original message omitted]

> At 8:49 PM +0200 6/24/02, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
Linking
> by hand wasn't nice, but we had a small hand-cranked machine. It looked

Nope, we have them. Its an additional component to carry around and use with
your ever spiraling quantity of infantry kit.

> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:

> to WWII gamers). Linking

Nope. If we link, we're linking by hand.

We don't usually have to link, but there are times when it's necessary. Only
with blank ammo during training, since on Real World deployments we get more
ammo than we can possibly fire.

> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
... since on Real World deployments we get
> more ammo than we can possibly fire.

I guess we will have to downgrade your efficiency
reports!    If you have excess ammo, you are not
trying hard enough.

:-)

Bye for now,

I think it's a matter of how the belts are put together. Our "belts" of ammo
are cartridges linked together by metal "clips" called links. A link clips
onto one cartridge and has a "hook" that is locked around the next cartridge
by the link that's clipped onto that cartridge.

http://www.twobittraining.com/CAP/graphics/belt3.gif
Note:  This is an image of 7.62mmNATO M-60 ammo.  Pretty much all of our
(US) small arms belted ammo is built this way.  The orange-tipped rounds
are tracers, of course. Great for letting you know where your rounds are
going, as well as letting the NME know where they're coming from.

So when the weapon fires the "belt" disintegrates as the bullets are stripped
from the links and fed into the barrel. After firing, you have separate brass
and links for each round fired.

The links are annoying little things, that get tangled when you try to sort
them, hurt like hell when you happen to kneel on one or press your hand down
onto one and usually found all over the training areas (making it real easy to
kneel on one...

Given their nature, I'd be surprised to find that there is a compact
hand-cranked machine to "build" a belt of ammo out of un-sorted links
and boxes of ammo. Like Mr.Atkinson, I never saw one, and never had to "build"
belts of ammo from unlinked rounds.

Note that the description of the links applies to ammo used in the M-2
(.50cal Browning MG), M-60, M-249"SAW" and M-240.  Probably applies to
others, but those are outside of my personal experience.

> From your description of "Feed in the belt from the side, drop in the

http://www.twobittraining.com/CAP/graphics/belt3.gif
Note:  This is an image of 7.62mmNATO M-60 ammo.  Pretty much all of our
(US) small arms belted ammo is built this way.  The orange-tipped rounds
are tracers, of course. Great for letting you know where your rounds are
going, as well as letting the NME know where they're coming from.

--Flak

> On Mon, 2002-06-24 at 14:49, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
Linking
> by hand wasn't nice, but we had a small hand-cranked machine. It

> At 1:21 PM -0400 6/26/02, Flak Magnet wrote:
of
> ammo are cartridges linked together by metal "clips" called links. A

These are disintegrating links. There are non disintigrating links as
well as belts (textile/cloth) with folds every so often where a
cartridge is pushed.

Disintegrating links are set up so that you have two loops that wrap around
the first round from one side and another loop that wraps around the next
round from the other side. A group of links in line
allow you to pull a bullet from one link pair (left/right) and break
the belt of ammo. The M60 and M2 Mgs use this kind of link. Naturally there
are different sizes and specific configurations. Some are closed loop (M2 and
M9 links for 50cal) others are open loop (M15a2 50cal).

Other types of disintegrating link are a single clip with a ring that attaches
to the next link. Pulling the round allows the ring to fall away separating
the links together. ie M12 for 20mm.

Non disintegrating links are arranged such that a single clip is attached to
another such that even when rounds aren't in the links, the belt is still
continuous. These were used in guns like the MG42 or 34 and in the BESA MG in
British service.

Belts can be a simple belt with folds woven (M1919) into them or they can be
more complex with folds and locating tabs with brass grommets (vickers).

The belts, metallic link or cloth, are of course a fixed length requiring the
changing of the belt when the ammo ran out. Disintegrating link that had open
loops allowed for a soldier to clip a new belt onto the belt that is just
hanging out of the feed tray on the MG and not open the action to feed a new
round. Some of the non
disintegrating links/belts have starter tabs on them that allow one
to feed the tab through the action and after cycling it two times
have that belt/gun ready to go.

Re linkers, there are many forms but the basic model used with the vickers or
on the M42 is a device that clips to a table and has a hopper for new rounds
to be fed into. The belt is fed in and by virtue of a crank handle, you get
loaded belt out the other side.

Yes, prezactly. I'm glad you said what I meant more clearly than I did.

Are cloth belts still in modern use?

> On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 16:04, Ryan M Gill wrote:

+++MUCH SNIPPAGE+++

Flak Magnet schrieb:
> From your description of "Feed in the belt from the

Right. The belts are long enough for, IIRC, 50 rounds, and stay together when
fired. They can be linked up to make longer belts which
will fall apart into 50-link belts again.

Greetings

> At 4:17 PM -0400 6/26/02, Flak Magnet wrote:

Well, they work in M1919s and in Vickers. So, if anyone is still using them
for heavy fire support roles (for the Vickers especially, given they don't
have to change barrels nearly as often as the air cooled MGs do) then likely
they could still be in use.

I have seen footage of Indian and Pakistani troops using Brens, Enfields and
FALs. Likely they still have some Vickers knocking around as they are nearly
indestructible and, given a truck load of ammo and water, can fire all day and
all night as long as the teams keep adding water, swapping belts,
(occasionally changing barrels) and holding down the trigger.

South Africa converted theirs to 7.62 and used them at least until 1988.

Oh, here's a really good example of cloth belts for the Vickers.

http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk/collection/collect46.jpg

The nice thing about cloth belts is that you can turn them out with a basic
cloth loom machine. A bit easier on the budget vs stamping out metal links. In
a very limited industrial economy, such a means of feeding a weapon is pretty
good. Additionally some weapons can fire cloth belts or metallic link (some
M1919s) with equal ease (mostly).

The problem with cloth belts (aside from fixed length) is that when wet, they
swell and that they can rot. However, metallic link can rust. Taking a freshly
wet belt and placing it in the sun will dry it out. A rusted pile of links are
just garbage. The proof against rotten belts is dunking the lot in ATF or a
similar light oil. Such keeps the action cleaner and prevents rotting.

> --- John Leary <john_t_leary@yahoo.com> wrote:

Let me remind you of one salient fact:

My experience with Real World deployments came from a NATO peacekeeping
mission.

The locals were no longer feeling terribly froggy after the 82nd Airborne shot
all the local "heros" during the first six months of the mission.

When our guys took fire, it was badly aimed, from far away, and we never saw
who was shooting. As a result we fired off only a tiny handful of rounds. Our
most exciting incident involved a fairly stupid quartet of 19Ks[1] who didn't
know how to safe their coax. Came within 8 inches of putting a pair of my
buddies into black bags with headshots.

> On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 16:40, Ryan M Gill wrote:

Ah, so as vintage MG's are still probably in use amongst some countries, they
probably ARE still in use. Neat!

> Oh, here's a really good example of cloth belts for the Vickers.

Waaah!  I want an attic/loft filled with old MGs and military
paraphenalia (my basement that has my duffel bags stuffed with old clothing
and boots doesn't count).

> The nice thing about cloth belts is that you can turn them out with a

> The problem with cloth belts (aside from fixed length) is that when

I also heard that there was a problem with Vickers belts stretching and not
holding the rounds securely, something they would address by washing them and
the resulting shrinkage would tighten them right back up. Though this was an
article about a "full auto" collector's club out west (US). I didn't think
that militaries would still be using the guns today.

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:30:29 -0700 (PDT) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> We don't usually have to link, but there are times

You hope. <grin> Else you may need the USAF 'precision' attacks)

"Hey, it was a tank... or an APC... or some kind of mud-mobile..."

Gracias,

Must be the new Army or something. 25 years ago in the US Navy we linked
 by
hand (usually for splicing two partial belts together) and had a hand operated
press for making up longer belts. You laid the links on a tray that had
troughs in it, and rounds parallel to the links, then the press pushed the
rounds through the links. Then we moved the belt over and linked to the belt
end. I seem to remember like seven or eight 7.62 rounds could be processed at
a time and the.50 cal like two or four.

Granted, it wasn't an everyday thing, but we did do it.

Had one moron one time take two partial belts of 20mm and try to relink them.
If you think of the links as two halves on a door hinge, the round is the
hinge pin. The round doesn't want to slide in, so said moron grabs an open end
wrench and starts pounding on the round "around that like flat spot with the
dimply thing in the middle?".

The predictable thing happened. Moron hits the primer and POW! Big
Firecracker!

> Given their nature, I'd be surprised to find that there is a compact

> Note that the description of the links applies to ammo used in the M-2

Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and email is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
[quoted original message omitted]

MOST OF OUR AMMO IN THE RVN WAS LINKED, but we did have hand operated linking
machines.

as i remember 7.62mm came in linked 100 round  belts, as did the .50-cal
BMG ammo, and these arrived in metal cans 4- 6 to a wooden case.

most of our single round ammo was for rilfes, and we used to load magazines by
individual round all of the time.

when the rifle ammo was on stripper clips it was loaded 10 rounds to a clip,
and 2 clips to a cardboard box packed into a cotton bandolier
with 6 - 10 pockets. some times the clips were loaded into the
bandoliers without cardboard boxes, then always without cardboard boxes.

we got out loose  rifle ammo cardboard boxes -20 rounds to a box-in a
bandolier as described above.

or in individual boxes inside of a metal can.

or in metal can filled with 1,000 loose rounds.

when ever we got rifle ammo on stripper clips, WE WERE at pains to
keep the loader and the  stripper clips for re-use in reload those
magazines!

pistol ammo came in cardboard boxes-50 round to a box, and 1000 rounds
in a can.

shotgun ammo was either loose rounds in a can, or packed into 5 round
cardboaurd boxes inside of a metal can.

assorted hand grenades came inside of taped shut black cardboard cylinders.
ditto for mortar rounds, rocket rounds, and recoillsees rifle rounds.

40mm grenade alauncher ammo came packed into 6 round cotton bandoliers snugged
down into white plastic cups.

the bandoliers came packed inside a metal cans.

DAWGIE

> At 6:58 AM -0500 6/30/02, Scott Watts wrote:

[snip]

> The predictable thing happened. Moron hits the primer and POW! Big

The nice thing about ammo and stupid tricks is that the problems are self
correcting....Mostly....

> The nice thing about ammo and stupid tricks is that the problems are

Ah, the beauty of natural deselection

> At 3:51 PM +0000 6/30/02, Richard Kirke wrote:

Problem is, this git has probaby already married (or not) and reproduced at
this point in a navy career as a SFC (or not First class).

> Ah, the beauty of natural deselection

Yes, but at least he will have stopped reproducing. No-one said that
Darwin got it all right. After all the "Toys with munitions" gene would have
completely disapeared by now.

Maybe we should cull the families...(uh oh, am starting to get a bit right
wing =8-0).

> At 12:40 PM +0000 7/1/02, Richard Kirke wrote:

Neither. Extreme right or left wing meet aren't terribly far apart. (the axis
is a circle and the two wings eventually meet at the bottom of the circle).

> --- Richard Kirke <richardkirke@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe we should cull the families...(uh oh, am

The communist chinese use the 'family' elimination/
punishment as a standard control for the individual thinker.

Bye for now,

> The communist chinese use the 'family' elimination/

And it was also used by the Soviet Union in WWII as a way of trying to stop
people deserting to the Germans.