It's about 2:30 am and I can't sleep, so I thought I would contribute some of
my ideas on this subject. I deleted the messages that started the tread, so I
started an new one. Anyway, from what read the problem is ground to orbit cost
and interstellar transport cost. If you have the tech to make both cheap
enough for a reasonable return on your investment, you have the tech to make
trading redundant, except for specialty items. So a little hand waving is in
order. Here's my take. Let's say that the ability to produce FTL devices
requires some fairly high tech gadgets, but the energy required to power these
devices is relatively low. I'm not going to get
into specific numbers, since it is after 2 in the morning. Furthermore
let's say that the FTL device works by opening a "wormhole". For the ground to
orbit situation, you could say that an FTL device on the ground opens a stable
wormhole to a position in orbit. Thus allowing you to transport bulk goods to
orbit at a reasonable cost. To keep you from just transporting your goods
directly from planet to planet, and keep spacecraft in the picture (which is
where the funs at anyway), you have to put some restrictions on the FTL
devices. Say a gravity well does have an influence on the FTL device. But, for
small entrance and exit situations, say big enough for a railroad car size
pallet o' stuff, an FTL device can work in a gravity well over VERY short
distances, like from ground to VERY HIGH orbit. The reason for a very high
orbit, say over twice the diameter of the planet, is to keep from having the
FTL device being used as a mass transit system. So your spacecraft in orbit
pick up the trade goods at the exit point of the wormhole. To keep spacecraft
from FTLing right on top of your planets, you have the restriction of any
distance greater than <insert reasonable distance here> requires that BOTH the
entrance and exit of the wormhole be out of the gravity well.
Just some thoughts.
> Christopher K Smith wrote:
Why? I have cheap ground to orbit and cheap FTL. Does that mean I have all the
necessary minerals in the right location? Does that mean that the asteroid
base at Proxima Centauri doesn't need wheat (or bread anyway) shipped in?
Cheap transport does not mean Star Trek "beam me a beer Scotty" technology.
> so I started an new one. Anyway, from what read the problem
You may have the knowledge, but that doesn't mean you have the
trained manpower and/or physical plant. Some of our listers
know how to build a computer chip starting from stone knives and bearskins,
but it's more economical to buy it elsewhere. Similarly, the colonists in
various places may find it a better investment to put most of their labor into
terraforming, and import their exotic plastics and their microsurgical
instruments and their tanks from someone else.
Or they may not have the tech. It's not like companies typically give away
industrial secrets on a regular basis, after all; the price to buy the tech
may be more than they want to pay.
There may also be other incentives. You may want antimatter, but the political
cost of setting up a production facility in
the same system with 6 billion (technologically-illiterate
eco-terrorist Green party) citizens may outweigh the purely
monetary benefits, so you import from someone who set up shop in
a M-star system (like Forward Power Systems).
Or cost -to-orbit may be relatively cheap. Setting up a
beanstalk on a low-gravity world shouldn't be all that
expensive; perhaps that would drive development colonies.
In short, economics isn't about that is _possible_, it's about
making choices for the use of limited resources.
Besides, if interstellar travel and trade isn't feasible, then having starship
battles is kind of tough to justify.
> on the FTL device. But, for small entrance and exit situations, say
I've got a problem swallowing this one. I'd say a much more reasonable
approach is that you manufacture or refine in orbit (from, say, asteroid
mining) and that eliminates the whole gravity well problem.
> >on the FTL device. But, for small entrance and exit situations, say
Okay, let's say theoretically you can open a wormhole from anywhere to
anywhere. The problem is that gravity creates a kind of feedback in the
wormhole. The more gravity around, the higher the feedback. Enough feedback
causes the wormhole to collapse. The longer the real distance traveled the
more sensitive the wormhole is to gravity. So to travel to different star
systems you need to be relatively far away from the gravity well. For ground
to orbit the distance is short enough that the wormhole is stable, but not so
short that the added gravity would cause too much feedback.
On another note, someone mentioned beanstalks as a way to get from ground to
orbit. This is just an opinion but regardless of how many scientist swear that
it is safe, the liability insurance on something like that would probably make
it too expensive to operate. Unless you ban lawyers from the planet:).
Well, here is my take on it when I set up ITTT
(http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/gzg/ittt.html).
Interstellar trade is expensive to set up, but not expensive, in and of
itself, to run. The most expensive barrier to interstellar trade is the
various governments use of taxes, tariffs, and commerce raiding.
Most new colonies will not be set up for interstellar commerce. The cost of
transporting and planting the colony with enough people, food, and equipment
for SURVIVAL is going to be great enough that it is not done on a whim (even
by large governments). Basic items to be sent to the colony would be:
- people (IIRC 5000 is about the minimum to begin a self-sustaining
colony)
- food for consumption (1st year + 1 year reserve)
- materials for housing
- seed for planting
- soil for planting in initially
- equipment to prepare the soil for earth plants
- water purification equipment (for people to drink and for food plants)
- air purification equipment
- power generator for colony
- equipment for exploration
- equipment for scientific study of planet
- equipment for basic manufacturing
- equipment for communication
- on planet
- local space (interstellar communication is non-cannon)
- equipment for manufacturing
- basic (fix the plow)
- mid-tech (fix the radio, make a computer)
- advanced for special purposes (extraction and purification of
Vanrijidium 238). This would only be included if it was the purpose for the
colony.
- heavy industry would not be included unless it was the reason for
the colony (atmosphere processing plants for terraforming). Without heavy
industry or advanced tech, most new colonies would be unable to build the
ships necessary for interstellar trade. Thus they rely on trade corporations
(ITTT) or free traders for transportation of goods. Things that they cannot
afford to import, they will have to make or make do without. After the colony
grows to the size that it has unutilized manpower, it can
start to pool the resources necessary to build a space port and/or
starships. Many colonies have tried to include the materials necessary to
build a star port, but such colonies often die because of the additional debt
incurred in transporting and maintaining the excess materials. And often such
colonies are too tempting a target for the "Little Napoleons" who invade the
colony and enslave or kill the population to expand their "empire" (why should
we build a colony when it is much cheaper to ship troops to take one someone
else has built, especially if it has a space port to support our next
acquisition?).
This is how ITTT makes a profit. It sets up a 99 year exclusive contract with
colonies to be the sole shipping source for interstellar goods and travel.
This is about the necessary time for a minor colony to develop the excess
manpower and resources needed to develop its own interstellar trade. But by
being the EXCLUSIVE pipeline for goods, it collects on every shipment in or
out of the planet. In this deal it also avoids being
taxed/tarrifed to
death by local and regional governments (one of the things free traders (and
ships from colonies are often hit with, turning a profit into a loss).
The other big concern is commerce raiding. In these times of interstellar war,
commerce to a planet or region is viewed as a valid target. While operating a
starship is of acceptable expense, loosing one to pirates, is not. And running
a warship to escort your shipping is too expensive for free traders or many
colonies. This is another reason why corporations such as ITTT seem to
flourish. They have the deep pockets necessary to field escorts
and Q-Ships in their trade convoys (and insurance).
How is it done? I see a couple of ways: 1) Large colonies will have orbital
platforms for unloading of cargo from bulk freighters. They will divide up the
cargo containers for distribution on the planet. Cargo will be transferred
either by beanstalk or by
anti-grav
tugs. 2) Medium size colonies, will probably have a fair size space port (on
the ground). Ships, that service these colonies, will have to have interface
craft to shuttle the goods to the space port. At the space port goods will
then be divided for distribution on the planet. Usually, this size colony will
have export containers already packed for the trader to pick up, so an
exchange of containers is performed. 3) Small colonies will have neither an
orbital platform, nor a space port. They will have a beacon, and a landing
zone. Again, traders will have to have interface craft to transport cargo to
the surface. There the containers will be unloaded and reloaded with exports.
This may take a little time as they may not have an exchange container and may
have to unload the container before they can load the exports. Larger
companies will donate an exchange container to make the stop quicker, but free
traders will not have the resources to provide each stop with an exchange
container (and make the trip with an empty container to give them as an
exchange container). Since ITTT and IAS have "standardized" the modular
containers, this is less of an issue than it once was. Even small colonies can
now manufacture containers (but it is standard law that the manufacturer is
responsible for losses traced to a container that fails in the first 10 years
of its service). Most colonist will travel to the landing site for
distribution of their goods.
---
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net <mailto:bkb@beol.net>
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
ICQ: 12848051 AIM: Rlyehable
---
[quoted original message omitted]
> Well, here is my take on it when I set up ITTT
> 3) Small colonies will have neither an orbital platform, nor a space
> They will have a beacon, and a landing zone. Again, traders will have
> will be unloaded and reloaded with exports. This may take a little time
> they may not have an exchange container and may have to unload the
> before they can load the exports. Larger companies will donate an
> container to make the stop quicker, but free traders will not have the
> with an empty container to give them as an exchange container). Since
> and IAS have "standardized" the modular containers, this is less of an
> than it once was. Even small colonies can now manufacture containers
> is standard law that the manufacturer is responsible for losses traced
> container that fails in the first 10 years of its service).
This fits in very well with the OU concept of patrol ships having an
8-mass
space "free". A standard re-supply configuration module has a 3-mass
hanger
for a 2-mass lander, plus 5 spaces for cargo etc.
It's interesting that 2 OU Patrol ships in this configuration have exactly the
same capabilities as a Kra'Vak "Kanga" raider. Which fits in with the OU's
penchant for Special Ops.
AEBrain said:
> I can see both ITT and OU ships occasionally filling in for
This is particularly
> good when the OU ships could have their 8-mass filled with,
And ITT--that's Imperial Tactical Technologies, an Alarishi
company--is always pleased to cooperate with our friends and
associates in the OU. In fact, a number of our freighters are designed with
modular cargo containers which can be switched
out, in time of need, for defense modules: SMR-ER, PDS/ADFC, or
MT-Missile packs.
And the lawsuits to prevent ITTT from continuing to infringe on our
trademarks, etc, are still continuing in several planetary
systems. :-)