Hello:
I'm seriously thinking getting back into role-playing,
particularly a
hard sci-fi RPG. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good system. I
have narrowed it down to a few likely candidates:
Alternity
GURPS (Either Space or Traveller) Marc Miller's Traveller
I am looking of a system that is simple and isn't bogged down with over
mechanics. Does anyone have any suggestions.
> Hello:
GURPS has pretty consistent mechanics, but lots of flexibility. I really like
GURPS Traveller (though I haven't had the opportunity to play it yet).
- Sam
> Alternity
I don't have any experience with this one.
> GURPS (Either Space or Traveller)
Good system. As complex - or not complex - as you want it be with the
addition of various sourcebooks. Well written and supported.
> Marc Miller's Traveller
Also a good system, but more restrictive, and currently suffers from a
(possibly) terminal lack of support.
> At 09:50 PM 6/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
I borrowed this and looked it over for a couple of days. Looked like a cross
between Star Frontiers & D&D. If you don't mind that it could be your thing.
Had a glossy layout and pretty art too. I think there is going to be a
Starcraft add on so you can table top rollplay a computer game.
> GURPS (Either Space or Traveller)
GURPS can seem a bit heavy on the mechanics looking at it the first time. If
you don't mind mixing and matching (and outright dropping) rules it is fine.
It is a point based system which some people seem to have a problem with. SJG
supports it pretty well. Lay out and artwork is hit and miss. You can get
GURPS Lite in PDF format free at
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/ and see if it is for you. There is
going to be a GURPS Myth book... hmmm, I am seeing a trend.
I'm still waiting for GURPS Ogre.
> Marc Miller's Traveller
I have heard bad things about the quality control on the books in this game. I
don't know if it is even supported anymore. Never bothered to even look at it
though. I heard a
To be semi on topic: has anyone ever RPGed in the "Tuffleyverse"?
I'm somewhat partial to Star Wars as a base rules set [1]. For hard
sci-fi I'd combine Traveller tech with Star Wars rules for
character-level stuff. And the dificulty numbers from space combat will
translate, since SW also uses a difficulty level system.
To recap the SW rules, each attribute or skill is the number of d6 you'll roll
for a test on that skill. Difficulty numbers are a fixed number, with named
ranges as guidelines and conversion aids. There are
6 attributes, each rated as a dice code such as 4D+2 (pretty good).
Character creation is by assigning a dice total to the attributes,
typicaly 21-24 dice between the six; 10-14 dice are then added to the
controlling attribute to set skill levels. Combat is done by opposed rolls for
the most part.
Nothing beats it (except possibly Teenagers From Outer Space) for new gamers.
Almost anybody can remember "roll that many dice, high is good" or "both of
you roll so many dice, doubling up the other guy is good." A set of fantasy
rules took 20 minutes to hack out the basics, with magic converted from Ars
Magica. Other games that convert very easily to the "D6 System" (as it's
sometimes known) include Traveller, you just juggle the character creation to
taste, but most of the numbers carry over, after conversion to dice (divide by
three in most cases). For Cyberpunk or Mekton, subtract one from the stat in
question, and
count that as 'pips' (one-third of a die). I suspect Champions would
scale as well. Note that the conversions retain all the chrome from the
original game, but replace the core rules with an extremely elegant and fast
playing system.
[1] This system first appeared in "Ghostbusters" by "Chaosium".
> At 7:50 PM -0700 6/3/99, Mark A. Siefert wrote:
http://www.uwm.edu/~cthulhu
> =======================================================================
Having just gotten SGII not too long ago, I think this would be a really cool
idea. Especially if you came upw ith a system compatible with SGII stats so
you could play out larger battles with that...
God bless,
- Buddy
If you just want the rules without the Star Wars background stuff, WEG sells
the D6 system seperately. www.westendgames.org
God bless,
- Buddy
---------------------------------------------
Get paid for surfing the Web! (I'm dead serious!) www.alladvantage.com
Referal #: BXL-474
---------------------------------------------
[quoted original message omitted]
> Hello:
I'd recommend GURPS (Either Space, Traveller, or Terradyne if you can find it)
for background. That's what I generally buy GURPS products for these days. For
a system, if you really want quick and simple, check out Over The Edge. The
game is certainly NOT hard SF (Surreal urban horror, if I'm going to try to
sum it up) but the mechanics are great. If you want to check them out, look
at:
http://www.black-gate.com/thundarr/index.htm
For a (sigh) Thundarr the Barbarian game that uses the OTE mechanics. Atlas
gave the owner of the page permission to post the rules, so they are there to
be considered.
One last thing.... The various alien races in White Wolf's Trinity game
seem to be very well thought out. The background is a little too
Psi-heavy
to be considered hard SF (although George Alec Effinger is writing the game
fiction, which is a recommendation in *my* book.), but I like it. I haven't
been following things for the past year, so I'm not sure how they've developed
things, but they were off to a good start with the Qin and the
Coalition.
GURPS is your best bet as far as systems go, especially now that the
supplement tying it into Marc Miller's TRAVELLER is available. However, be
advised it is not the easiest system to get into (on a par with
HERO/CHAMPIONS), and you will not really be able to run a hard-SF game
with just the basic game book.
At a minimum, you will need:
GURPS Basic Rulebook
You SHOULD have:
GURPS High Tech GURPS Ultra Tech (unless your tech level isn't very high)
GURPS Traveller (recommended)
You might also want GURPS Vehicles.
That's a fair investment, both of time and money. However, if you are making
up your own background, GURPS is going to give you the most flexibility
(unless your going to do really wierd stuff, in which case go for HERO). GURPS
also has several supplements for existing
background that you could use for reference -- everything from Lensman
and the strange space aliens of the '50's B movies, to some very
interesting near-future Corporate Space settings.
As far as pre-written backgrounds go, I can't recommend TRAVELLER
enough.
I have not actually played ALTERNITY, but those of my friends who have can't
say enough bad things about it, which seems reasonable considering TSR's usual
track record with anything but D&D.
> "Mark A. Siefert" wrote:
> Hello:
I
> have narrowed it down to a few likely candidates:
On first glance, most people miss the fact that GURPS isn't really a game
system, but rather a meta-system. It helps you to create the game
system that you want to play. On that strength, I'd have to recommend it for
the type of game that you want to play. Realistically, what someone else
considers hard
sci-fi, you may
consider to be high fantasy, and vice versa. While the GURPS Basic Set allows
you to create the game mechanics that you prefer, GURPS Space allows you to
create the setting in which your characters are to be placed. I'd also
recommend GURPS Terradyne, long out of print but well worth the effort to
find.
In a message dated 6/3/99 8:07:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
schoon@aimnet.com writes:
<< > GURPS (Either Space or Traveller)
Good system. As complex - or not complex - as you want it be with the
addition of various sourcebooks. Well written and supported.<<
I'll second this. Somehow the manage to keep the flavor of Traveller while
transfering the mechanics to GURPS. The supplements are consistantl
outstanding. Far better than the Imperium editions of Miller's Traveller.
> Marc Miller's Traveller
Also a good system, but more restrictive, and currently suffers from a
(possibly) terminal lack of support.>
Definitely terminal. Imperium games went out business almost a year ago.
Faron
> On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:38:33AM -0400, Jonathan Jarrard wrote:
Also, GURPS Space, maybe GURPS Aliens -- if you're going to
have aliens.
There are also more GURPS Traveller books -- covering, um,
aliens, various organizations and professions, and I think a couple that get
into the Spinward Marches
I'm a big fan of GURPS -- it's not as complicated as it
seems, and its coherency makes it a joy to teach.
For ultra hard and nitty gritty not too far in the future SFRPG's I am
surprised no one has mentioned 2300 AD by GDW. It's got what you need, simple
mecahnics great background and the most intelligently designed alien "villain"
race in sic fi gaming the "Kafers"
As far as hard sci-fi goes, I always liked Traveller 2300. Of course,
it's no longer in print, but finding copies is pretty easy.
> "Robert A. Crawford" wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:38:33AM -0400, Jonathan Jarrard wrote:
Actually, all of the rules for designing aliens have been included in
Compendium I. So unless you really want the alien races included in GURPS
Aliens, it's a bit redundant.
> For ultra hard and nitty gritty not too far in the future SFRPG's I am
Hey, wait a second, I mentioned it....:)
You're right, though, this is one of the best hard sci-fi games I've
ever played. It's too bad it's all out of print, but finding stuff for it
isn't hard.
> In a message dated 6/4/99 4:02:14 PM EST, clowrey@primary.net writes:
<<
You're right, though, this is one of the best hard sci-fi games I've
ever played. It's too bad it's all out of print, but finding stuff for it
isn't hard.
Chris
> [quoted text omitted]
The vagaries of the list - right after I wrote in yours appeared I stand
corrected. You did mention it. and it IS a GREAT game mecahanically and
setting wise.
> At 10:38 AM -0700 6/4/99, Fabet@aol.com wrote:
For those interested in Traveller source material and specialized
rules, Imperium Games is having a 2-for-1 sale on their remaining
stock; not much is left. I recommend the combination of Pocket Empires and
Imperial Squadrons for a strategic game. That'll give you essentially the
movement and combat system 5th Frontier War with a campaign and economic
system that can cover a wide range of complexity and detail. I'm currently
interested in a near stars campaign (Starforce Alpha Centauri has a nice
hexmap for this using this system. This would, of course, be a good system for
computer moderated email play. I currently have 3 tables (Fleet, Squadron, and
Admiral) and 19 rows defined (counting the 3 primary keys) and am working on
the "business" logic. This is all in FileMaker Pro, of course.
Any bright ideas as to additional data representation, or algorithm
suggestions are welcome
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Michael Llaneza wrote:
Add Star Trek RPG ( The first version from FASA.)
Oh, yes, the FTL2448 has a starmap module that is a map of all the stars
within 200 lightyears.
My friend has a copy of Universe, I always thought the map looked cool!
Didn't one of the Challange magazine issues (GDW?) Had a traveller subsector
of the Earth area.
I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but it just so happens that I was
writing an article for SJ Games Pyramid magazine on using GURPS with
Full Thrust. I'll make a deal -- I'll provide the information to the
list if someone will actually play test and see how I'm doing.
BTW, I managed pretty well with just the GURPS basic set and GURPS Space. The
other GURPS books that people have mentioned might make the task easier or
provide some extra detail, but they aren't really necessary.
I bought GURPS Traveller thinking it would help, but I was pretty disappointed
with it.
The important thing to remember, and which others have mentioned, is to make
GURPS be the complexity level that you and your players like, which for me was
pretty low.
Nick clcaldwell@kreative.net
> At 08:09 PM 6/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Donald Hosford wrote:
Do I get to remind you to the level of annoyance? (ha!)
Seriously, there is no rush for the printer friendly version.
Oviously "Wifely Things" take precidence.
> I know, I know.
Also the poster-able map. Nag nag nag. No reply needed, I know you'll
get to it when you get to it.
(Hello, Mrs.. Chung. We just want to mention that we really appreciate your
husband and his infrequent but expert labors on our behalf, which have greatly
benefited all of us. The dream of space is an alluring siren).
On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:50:45 -0500, "Mark A. Siefert"
<cthulhu@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> Hello:
Well, considering that most of my web site is roleplaying, I HOPE I'm not too
late to contribute to this discussion... *S*
I haven't tried Alternity. It's TSR, so it's a little pricey to begin with,
but I've heard some people don't mind it.
GURPS I've played. A lot depends on your players. I didn't mind the system,
though recently I've found that the combat system is a little too fiddly for
fast-paced roleplaying. Hexes and such are great if you're using
miniatures, but I found all the modifiers a bit much for our group. If your
players are
miniatures/wargames players then you shouldn't have too much trouble.
I created a set of what I call EZGURPS. The one problem that GURPS has is that
there are a plethora of modifiers and stuff... yet they modify a number
essentially drawn from thin air: a skill roll on 3D6, based on a skill number
typically from 10 to 20. I mean, the skills aren't very finely defined. They
are coarse numbers. Yet the system has some really fiddly "realistic"
modifiers. From my physics days, a number is only as precise as the least
precise number... I take this into consideration by abstracting many of the
modifiers. The result is a fast-paced GURPS combat system... faster than
Basic GURPS (it was intended for a Supers campaign).
Traveller... well, I have the original. Aside from adding an experience
system, there isn't much different... and a lot of the stuff wasn't worth the
money. It's now an orphaned system. But, you can still find it cheap...
Some other suggestions:
FUDGE: FUDGE is a generic game system. It doesn't have the support of GURPS,
but there is a lot of stuff for it on the net. In fact, FUDGE itself is
available for free. You can also buy the book... If you're looking for a
cheaper alternative to GURPS with a simpler, cleaner system --
particularly if
you intend to invent your own background -- this is a good choice.
D6: Star Wars and the basic game engine have a huge following. I've heard that
WEG lost the rights to the Star Wars game, since they are in financial
trouble. I don't know what this means in terms of the game syste, but there is
a LOT out there for it. I don't know about it's generic ability.
Trinity: This is White Wolf's SF game. Heavily into psionics. The other games
using the system, "Vampire: The Masquerade", "Werewolf: The Apocalypse",
"Mage: The Ascension" etc., are hugely popular. And there's a (so-so,
from what I've heard) miniatures game that goes along with it. Not very
generic, but a lot of good support for the system. As for the game itself...
well, it's still up in the air. It's not as popular as it was expected to be.
Star Trek: There's a new Trek RPG. I'm not sure what it's like, though. It is
new, however... You might want to give it a try.
Feng Shui: Okay, not it's not VERY generic! *L* It's a Hong Kong action movie
game. It has fantasy and SF settings tied into a multi-setting universe.
The support isn't that extensive. But the system is wonderful. VERY fast paced
(incredibly so!). Some don't like it as it's very, VERY cinematic, but I love
it. I've done Superheroes, fantasy, SF, and a "True Lies" scenario in the
system. The system is out of print (and the company has gone under) but the
system is SO beautiful, you only need the game book as a start. I have "Nexus:
The Infinite City" which was the system's precursor, with lots of stuff like
advantages and disads, that sort of thing. I like this so much, which is why I
mention it.
Chaosium's BRP: This is the same system used by RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu,
Elric, and Ringworld. It's fairly generic. The problem is that there are no
weapon stats for the game. If you're running a near future game, this is a
well supported game system. In fact, I've seen Traveller conversions for this
game system available on the net. I'm most familiar with this game system.
It's not very sexy these days, but it's shaken out, it's easy to learn and
intiuitive, and it works.
CORPS: A smaller game with a lot of fans. It's produced by the same guys who
do Guns, Guns, Guns. It's a straight forward game system, which has an
emphasis on combat. Guns, Guns, Guns, and More Guns, Guns, Guns are two books
consisting of design rules for creating weapons and with lists of weapons for
several systems. This includes SF weapons. The design is based on physics with
plenty of algorithms. The result is supposed to be reasonably realistic. They
have a vehicle design system now, too. I understand that there's a new Space
CORPS game, now. This could be what you're after.
Heavy Gear: in spite of being a Canadian game, I'm loathe to mention it based
on the fact I'm peeved at what they did with their miniatures. However, it's a
popular game. Heavy on big robots (though they are smaller than Battletech)
I've heard a number of people run successful campaigns without Gear. The game
system does look simple and clean, and should transfer to almost any
background. It's well supported.
Mutant Chronicles: I don't know much about it, except that it's the same
universe as Warzone. I'm not impressed with the author (who once argued with
me that a table of contents is as good as an index) and the game isn't as
popular as it's miniatures rules, but it will allow a transfer between RPG and
minis game. It's definitely in the realm of space fantasy, though...
Battlelords: I don't know much about it, but it's a favourite of space combat
fans. Lots of heavy duty combat rules, which some have used for wargames I
believe. One of the less popular games, but the core group of fans is rabid!
That's just a few... there are plenty of others. I didn't get into the
Japanimation games, or some of the lesser known games like Millenium's End,
and the Deadlands SF game.
One thing, you have to decide what kind of SF game you want. Are the players
small players who get roped into bigger events? Are they a combat team that
slip into commando style scenarios? Are they commanders (or crew) of huge
space fleets? Some games have more or less emphasis on starship combat. Some
are more cinematic than others. A good starting question: will the players fly
their own starships on a regular basis, or will they just catch rides.
I hope this helps, Mark...
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> Trinity: This is White Wolf's SF game. Heavily into psionics. The
well, it's
> still up in the air. It's not as popular as it was expected to be.
Trinity Battleground isn't bad for people who are used to RPGs. You know, the
"more power than mere mortals" player characters. Definitely focuses on the
the
"special"-type characters. Fans of Stargrunt II will probably hate it.
Not
traditional hard-sf but incorporates a bio-techology element that is
fun.
> Feng Shui: Okay, not it's not VERY generic! *L* It's a Hong Kong
but the
> system is SO beautiful, you only need the game book as a start. I have
Atlas Games recently announced it was going to re-release Feng Shui.
All new artwork (and presumably layout), which can only improve the book in my
opinion. Apparently Robin Laws only owns the rights to the actual text of the
game. Supposedly there's a whole slew of games in the works. Definitely not
hard-sf,
probably not hard anything.
> Heavy Gear: in spite of being a Canadian game, I'm loathe to mention
However, it's a
> popular game. Heavy on big robots (though they are smaller than
The game
> system does look simple and clean, and should transfer to almost any
I'd recommend Heavy Gear for military science-fiction around the same
tech level as the Star Grunt II and Dirtside II. With the 2nd Ed technology
book you could probably reproduce most of the Dirtside vehicles. Hard sf if
you overlook the robots (which are close).
The Heavy Gear system (Silhouette) is also used in the Jovian Chronicles,
which has been mentioned elsewhere in this list. Sort of hard SF,
solar-system based,
if you get rid of the Giant Robots. Mechanical system allows modeling of most
other conceivable vehicles.
> Mutant Chronicles: I don't know much about it, except that it's the
The Mutant Chronicles RPG has it's high points and low points. Background is
pretty decent. Technology has an industrial age look to it. Detailed character
background generation tied heavily into character creation. Rules for
integrating with tabletop game were available in Warzone first edition, not
sure if they were also included in the MC RPG second edition or Warzone second
edition. Not hard sf, techology has declined significantly.
> Battlelords: I don't know much about it, but it's a favourite of space
Not even sure if this is supported anymore. Definitely a lot of
book-keeping.
Other sci-fi games worth a second look (most are discontinued but are
worth a look if found cheap.)
Star Frontiers: TSR, definitely out of print. Heavy on the cheap and cheerful
factor. I've heard it described as Golden Age sci-fi but I wouldn't go
that far. Zebulon's Guide supplement goes a long way towards improving and
adding toward the
game. Check on-line for some pretty darn good resources, including much
of the original material. Knight Hawks starship combat game was excellent for
beginners. Not hard sf.
Cyberpunk 2020: R Talsorian Games, available. Currently on hiatus pending the
third edition which will use the new Fuzion rules. Lots of books available.
Appeals to the gun types. Hard sf tendencies, near future, almost
contemporary.
Bubblegum Crisis and Armored Trooper Votoms: R Talsorian Games, available.
Both games use the Fuzion system with individual tweaks. Closely follows their
respective source Anime. BGC is more "cinematic urban drama" and ATV more
"gritty war story". Not hard sf.
Mekton Zeta: R Talsorian, available. Also on hiatus pending new,
Fuzion-compatible system. Good for the more flamboyant anime-sf.
Simple game mechanics. Zeta Plus includes full construction rules for just
about any vehicle.
Waste World: Manticore, out of print? Post apocalypic SF. Primary attraction
appears to be quick combat system and colorful background. Sort of a
mish-mash of
various sub-genres. High-tech, bio-tech, martial arts, mutant powers,
psionics, everything. Some resources on the internet. Not hard sf.
SLA Industries: Wizards of the Coast, now Nightshift Games. Darker urban SF, a
UK import. Not a bad game setting if you can wade through the depressing
background material. Relatively simple mechanics. Hope to see more stuff
released now that the original authors are attempting to self-publish.
Some interent resources. Not hard sf.
Space Master: ICE, out of print. Sci-fi for Rolemaster fans. This
means very
chart-heavy to the rest of us. Two editions published, second was more
comprehensive. Two wargames, Star Strike (space) and Tactical Strike (ground)
were also published. Original Silent Death game was nominally based on this
setting but has since diverged. Been a while but I don't remember it being
hard sf.
Fading Suns: Holistic Design, currently available. Imagine the Dark Ages in
space. I'm not too familiar with this one. There's a space combat game (Noble
Armada) available. Books are still being slowly but steadily being published.
Not hard sf.
Shadowrun: FASA, available. Currently in 3rd edition with increasingly
streamlined rules. Cyberpunk meets fantasy. I thought this one had peaked but
it continues to be supported well. Long out of print urban combat game called
DMZ. Hmm... hard fantasy?
Renegade Legion: FASA, out of print. Legionnaire was the RPG. Pretty good but
suffered when generating a non-military character. Integrated well with
Interceptor (fighters) and Centurion (grav armor). Leviathan (starship) and
Prefect (system wide invasion) also were available. I really liked this one
but not hard sf. Maybe military sf?
Mechwarrior: FASA. Currently undergoing revision (I think). Battletech's
companion RPG. Afraid I know nothing about its mechanics. Rich background
thanks
to many years of novels and supplements. Semi-hard sf (soft-boiled?)
Dark Conspiracy: formerly GDW, somebody else now that I can't recall. Near
future urban horror. Not exactly sf since the it was only set a few years into
the future. Ran on GDW's Twilight 2000 rules. Hard sf with horror elements.
Space 1889: GDW, way out of print. Had to include this one. :-)
Bunch of wargames included Sky Galleons of Mars, Soldiers Companion
(colonial-style ground
battles), and Iron Clads and Ether Flyers (naval and aerospace rules). Due to
popular demand the Soldier's Companion is to be re-released, this time
without the sf elements (forgot who's publishing it now that GDW went under).
Hard
Victorian-era sf. ;-)
Summary of some other sf games I'm not to familar with:
Ravenstar -- Ravenstar Designs, heroic sf, out of print?
FTL 2884 (I think that's the year) -- TriTacGames, hard sf, in print?
Cooperation -- hard sf, out of print.
Albedo -- Chessex, hard sf (with furries), out of print?
High Colonies -- hard sf, recently reprinted, out of print again?
Shatterzone -- West End Games, heroic sf, out of print
Well, good luck finding the sf game you want. I can think of a few more but
I've spent too much time on this message. I can answer questions if you like
at the address below.
I'll gladly playtest, but it'll have to be via email, as I have very few
players around me. Would you care to GM a PBEM RPG? it's not that hard. I'm
running a Fading Suns game currently, and it's quite fun. If you're interested
in this option, let me know.
God bless,
- Buddy
---------------------------------------------
Get paid for surfing the Web! (I'm dead serious!) www.alladvantage.com
Referal #: BXL-474
---------------------------------------------
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 99-06-03 23:46:54 EDT, you write:
<< I have heard bad things about the quality control on the books in this
game. I don't know if it is even supported anymore. Never bothered to even
look at it though. I heard a >>
Its very bad, commas misplaced, spelling errors, wrong tense, missile tables,
ect. Alto if you can get past it is kind of neat.
-Stephen