[OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

5 posts ยท Oct 5 2002 to Oct 6 2002

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:07:39 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: [OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

I'll be departing the list for about a month starting Mon or Tues. PLDC date
is Wednesday. Of course, like with all things Army I may be back Thursday
because the schools NCO may have dinked up my paperwork. But before I go, let
me leave you with:

The NSL Grenzer Platoon (Lit, Borderer)

The NSL has had some difficulty maintaining adequate garrisons on all of its
colony planets, especially in those regions where a planet has multiple
colonies on
it and a large and well-dispersed garrison is
necessary to prevent raiding and small-scale disputes.
This problem is exacerbated by the NSL's focus on
high-tech and well-trained troops.  An alternate
source of manpower was required, and an Austrian colonel proposed taking a
leaf from the old Hapsburg manual.

The Grenzers are military colonists, offered tax-free
status and equipped with weapons and some agricultural and light manufacturing
equipment. They settle in designated zones and are required to defend their
district and support NSL main force units operating in or near their district.
They are not obligated to partake in offensive military actions, though some
do in return for pay and loot. They are rapidly gaining a reputation as good
skirmishers, yet without the ability or desire to stand in the line against
regular units.

Grenzer Platoon (1/49)
Platoon Headquarters: Platoon Leader, Platoon
Sergeant, Medic, EW/Commo Tech (1/3)
Weapons Squad: (0/7)
   Squad Leader
3xWeapons Teams: Gunner, Assistant Gunner
3xGrenzer Squad: (0/13)
   Squad Leader
2xRifle Teams: 1xCorporal, 2xGrenzers, 1xSAW Gunner Weapon Team: Gunner, AG
Sniper Team: Sniper, Spotter

Usual armament is the SG 58, but with the older MG53 as the SAW (FP d8, Imp
d10). The weapon team in the squads tends to be armed with the MG53 with extra
ammo, spare barrels, and a tripod. In this configuration, and with an AG, the
FP goes up to d10. The sniper teams typically are not formally trained, but
have good woodcraft. Depending on scenario, either treat them as proper
snipers, or use Tom Barclay's marksman rules.

The weapons squad frequently is equipped only with
IAVRs, 2-3 to a man.  On occasion they have a GMS/P or
GMS/L launcher.  The EW Tech's electronics are
typically basic.

Grenzer are considered to be veterans for purposes of firing, spotting, taking
cover, and all other purposes, EXCEPT morale. When making confidence checks,
they roll a d8 until they have lost 25% of the original squad strength, when
they begin using a d6. This counts troops lost to the fatigue dice. All TLs
for checks due to indirect fire or inflicted by
armored vehicles (size 2+) are counted as 1 higher.

The squads may fight in their component teams or may combine. In either case,
the squad leader may not pass activations to the teams, and the Platoon Leader
or Assistant Platoon Leader's passing of actions only affects 1 unit, be it a
team or a squad operating together.

The intent of a Grenzer unit is to engage light units and fight delaying
actions when outnumbered, not to slug it out with mechanized infantry or
tanks, nor to stand and take punishing artillery barrages.

From: Imre A. Szabo <ias@s...>

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:31:35 -0400

Subject: Re: [OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

Congratulations, you just re-discovered the thematic military
organization of the Byzantine Empire. I did a paper on it 11 years ago. More
specifically why it failed in the period after the Bulgarslayer...

I played around with modernized TE&O's for a thematic military organization
many years before that in Junior High...

ias

[quoted original message omitted]

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:36:47 -0400

Subject: Re: [OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

From: "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com>
> Congratulations, you just re-discovered the thematic military

<g> I think it would be safe to assume that John has known about thematic
organization for quite a while now. John is suggesting the NSL revived the
Austrian version of it.

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:05:48 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: [OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

> --- "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com> wrote:

No, I did that a LONG time ago. Wrote it up in pretty extensive detail.

I did a paper on it 11
> years ago. More

11 years ago... Have you read Treadgold's book on
the subject (Byzantium and Its Army, 284-1081)?  Prior
to that being published, I've yet to find a good general purpose work on the
Roman Army
post-classically.

> specifically why it failed in the period after the

Oh, that's easy.

Goddamn useless drunken fools of Emperors and
penny-pinching beauracrats and City aristocracy who
didn't trust 'em.

But Thematics fought in the line of battle and were overall excellent troops.
Grenzers, as the HRE used on the Croatian frontier with the Ottomans, are
skirmishers as described.

From: Imre A. Szabo <ias@s...>

Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 20:53:23 -0400

Subject: Re: [OT] Bye, Temporarily, and [SGII] Grenzers

> No, I did that a LONG time ago. Wrote it up in pretty

I read ever book having anything at all to do with the Byzantines that I could
find. I don't remember most of the titles, nor do I remmeber if Treadgold's
book was among them.

> Oh, that's easy.

Not quit that easy... What policy, why, by whom, intended consquences,
un-intended consequences, effectiveness, etc.  By the way, you are
missing some of the most important centers of power of Byzantine Society.
Funny,
one of the biggest penny-pinching beauracrats of all time (and not just
of the Byzantine Empire) was the Bulgarslayer, Basil II; and he did more to
preserves and strengthen the Thematic system then anyone else. His one
catstrophic failure was not training a successor.

> But Thematics fought in the line of battle and were

The men in the Thematic troops did a lot more then just fight in the line of
battle. For example, they also operated as gureillas behind enemy lines if
thier province was overrun before they were mobilized. This was by desgin in
the period of Basil II. They were also for local defense of the province from
raiders. So it starts sounding more and more like your Grenzers...