Hello, I've been watching the discussion regarding the use of electronic
warfare, sensors, etc. with some interest. The challenge is to design a system
that is enjoyable, simple and models the effect we're working on. Having
worked as an electronic warfare officer and a fire control officer, I think I
have a pretty good idea of how to do this. First, most Electronic Counter
Measure work is done against an aquisition sensor, not a Fire Control sensor.
The Fire Control sensor has a lot of energy in a tight beam, and is very hard
to jam or fool at comperable levels. On the other hand, the Fire Control Radar
is like looking through a straw, you can't scan the galaxy with it. If the
aquisition sensor does not see the target, you can't shoot at it. More
importantly, you can't respond to it. Given my comments on how powereful a
large ship is in the game and all this discusion, why have scouts? Here's my
proposal, generate an Operational level game. While the Full Thrust rules give
a strategic map for a campeign, we can introduce an operational level map that
show the solar system. Take a hex map with an overal hex shap and put the star
in the center with the planets at different distances. Include gas giants,
trojan points for heavy asteroid fields, Rings with debris, etc. Ships in task
groups who enter the system arrive on the edge of the system corresponding to
where they came from on the strategic hex. Randomly assign their arrival point
along that edge. Now comes the importance of sensors and fast ships. Ships
move a speed proportional to their slowest ship. Take the slowest ship in the
group and divide by two rounding down. This is how far the group moves per
Operational Turn. All ships must be in a task group. Neutrino streams will
tell a task group at any range where a task group is and how many ships are in
it, nothing more. Sensors will tell the owner a bit more as they get closer.
The range of a standard sensor is within its own hex, Enhanced one hex out and
Superior two hexes out. The information gained is the mass of each ship
rounded to the nearest ten. However, weasel systems can be used to inflate the
size factor of a ship. In the FT3 rules for each mass devoted to the Weasel
system 10 mass factors is portrayed. Weasel Systems cost 4 * Mass. Therefore,
a task force has the effective range of its best sensor. Fighter screens could
be used one hex out from the task force, but then would have to be recovered
and reloaded for combat. I even imagine patrol
craft that are fighter sized and have a 1/2 mass enhanced sensor aboard
(Viking/Hawkeye).
Jamming systems can be purchased. Let me work on this part more. However, they
should also have a quality gradient(basic, enhanced, superior) as well as
their range (self or escort jamming). Players move their task forces on the
Operational map using either simultaneous movement or alternating until all
units have moved. If an encounter occurs, you have the forces enter the
tactical board from a rough "hex" side. If a fleet is attack from more than
one direction then have the enemy enter from multiple sides. In the Tactical
scale combat, we can adjust the rules so that a sensor roll is not used just
to scan the enemy ship, but to localize the target. Effectively the enemy ship
remains a bogey until its is successfully
detected/localized. You can't shoot at bogeys. Ships could buy stealth
levels based on a percentage of mass devoted to stealthing. Now we have a
battle between stealth and sensors to deteremine the range at which a
successfull localization occurs. Of course, once a ship is localized, all
friendly ships will get the localization data. Now we have to limit the number
and size of a task group. With different qualities of commanders, we can have
normal ship commanders, intrepid commanders, and squadron commanders. Normal
Commanders are line Captains that can command their ships, but you want to
keep them close, no cost. Intrepid Commanders are line Captains that you can
trust to send out on their own to do scouting missions, etc. You can trust
them out of sight and will be used to conduct lone missions. Squadron
Commanders are Commodores and Admirals of different quality who can command a
squadron or fleet of warships. Their individual capacity should limit the
number of ships they can command, as well as the size of the flag bridge
available on the flag ship. So even if Admiral Haulsey is on a frigate, he may
not have the resources available to use his talents to full effect. Given that
each task force will be randomly assigned for its entry point on the
Operational map, you need to strike a balance for how many character points to
put into what type of commanders. Put all your eggs in one basket and get
flanked. Spread the skills out too much and get destroyed in detail...
I think that all of this would make an interesting mini-campeign
similar to the Western Pacific campeign of WW II.
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
> Phillip E. Pournelle <pepourne@nps.navy.mil> wrote:
[snipped good ECM / FireCon stuff]
> Here's my proposal, generate an Operational level game.
I agree with previous comments that compare this with Interception or System
scale Starfire
[snipped OpLev stuff]
> Now comes the importance of sensors and fast ships. Ships move
Here's the first potential problem. Assuming that we're going with GZG tech
here, you would have acceleration to a midpoint, with a massive velocity, and
then a deceleration to the destination; or you would have a series of
micro-jumps into the system until gravity wells became a problem. Either
way, that model for operational movement may not be the best.
I favor the second option, though there's no real basis for it.
IMO ships should have a relatively slow velocity when entering or exiting
jumpspace. This would explain why most FT battles don't happen at extremely
high delta-V. They micro-jump until their sensors make a long range
contact (or it becomes too risky), and then accellerate to engage. Of course,
no admiral would want to get his V too high for fear of cutting off his means
of escape if confronted by a superior force.
[snipped rest of OpLev stuff and Commanders skills]
I favor making Sensors and ECM (to include jammers, scanners, detectors, etc.)
into fewer systems rather than more. My reasoning is that they are closely
related, and I would rather model different effects on a simple system as
modifiers, than make more rules that would slow the game or put off those who
admire FT for its simplicity (myself included).
I like the idea of being able to detect a jump "footprint" from some distance
away, but that's really for the realm of a campaign game.
> At 13:48 22/06/98 -0700, you wrote:
Sounds very much like the System maps/level from Starfire.
Between this and the table top they had another level called the interception
scale. Couldn't really see the need for it (interception scale) myself.
> Now comes the importance of sensors and fast ships. Ships move
In my campaign rules ships moved hexes on the system scale equal to their
thrust ratings (nice and easy). No more than three task groups could occupy a
hex. Any number of fighter groups could occupy a hex with or without a task
group. Fighters moved 12 on the system map but couldn't be more than 6
hexes from their carrier or base unless they were transferring/rebasing.
Fighters had to return after 3 system turns (fighter endurance basically). I
took a hex to be 6' across (which could roughly be an 8'*4' or 6' games
table).
> Sensors will tell the owner a bit more as they get closer. The
I had basic senors 2 hexes, enhanced 3, superior 4 with SWACS (Spacebourne
Warning And Control) fighters having a range of one hex less. An SWACs group
replaced a normal fighter group but could operate as indiviual fighters.
Fighter groups could act as escorts for the SWACs but a single SWACs with
fighter group was represented as a single fighter group. The idea behind all
this was that such games could be played double blind with both (or more)
players only seeing on their maps what their fleets could "see", the ump
having a central map with all the info on it. Recording moves and changing
player maps might take a bit of time with large fleets. With sensors and ECM I
had so that if Sensor and ECM level equal you got a fix on the enemy his
numbers, speed and heading. If sensors 1 above ECM then you knew number of
escorts, crusiers and capitals (this was before FB which is going to cause a
rethink). If sensors two levels higher then you got the actual mass of each
ship. If enemy ECM was 1 level higher you knew where he was (plus speed and
heading) but not his numbers. If ECM 2 levels higher then 1 in 3 chance of
false reading, half the time registering a contact, half the time they would
get missed. Aquisition of such targets was only done each time a new task
group came within range of the target. All groups within adjacent hexes were
assumed to be "visual" contacts and numbers, indiviual masses, speed and
heading were known. You could spice these up with rules about your Level Of
Infomation that IIRC Schoon posted. Hope this all helps.
> Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:
Schoon,
I was discussing this with Phil at the club meeting saturday, the basic
concept was the sensor range and system movement for the
current campaign. I must interject that the insystem movement
was discarded and replaced with a more abstract and more simple system. (When
a ship jumps into a stratigic hex the ship arrives at EOS. (edge of system,
the next turn it moves to the planet of
choice.) The sensor ranges for the tacitcal game are:
normal(standard) = 60 enhanced = 120 superior = 240 special alien (X)= 480
Jamming is being used as a level of stealth, which reduces the
scanning sensor range by half/next lowest grade.
The incoming ships generate a pulse that can be detected by colony planets.
one planet lets you know an entry has been made into the system. two planets
narrow the choice to 2 of the 6 possible hexes. three planets define the exact
hexside of entry. Using this one can try to intercept an incoming force in
route to a planet or wait at the planet itself.
It is rather unlikely that it will become policy to station an intercept force
at each of the 6 hexsides at EOS to try to attack when the 'visitors' jump in.
Bye for now,
> John Leary <realjtl@sj.bigger.net> wrote:
[snippage]
> choice.) The sensor ranges for the tacitcal game are:
I like this much better. I was thinking of doing something similar with the
sensor ranges of the rules I proposed (i.e. log 2 to make 24,48,96,192, etc.),
but wasn't sure if the extra distance would be worthwhile if it couldn't
possibly be represented on the table.
> The incoming ships generate a pulse that can be detected by
Just an idea: you could change that from "planets" to "sensor stations." The
said stations, which I'm picturing as a small to medium space station, would
then be secondary strategic goals. The question of destroying them to deprive
the enemy of their use, or preserving them in hopes of capture intact could be
fun. So could the boarding actions.
> It is rather unlikely that it will become policy to station an
How fast do you allow you reaction force to get to the point of
incursion -
assuming it's been pinpointed, or at least guessed? I guess my real question
is, can a force stationed in the system intercept an opposing force prior to
them moving to the planet?