How to get clones to act expendable?
I just saw a program on the RFK assassination. It could have been all
bunk - TV being the source of much BS. But it focused on Sirhan Sirhan
and his mental state. They spoke with a number of psychiatrists,
psychologists, and experts in various kinds of conditioning. One of the guys
they talked to pointed out that Sirhan exhibited all of the signs (the
compulsion to do something, the rationalization to justify it, and the loss of
memory about it) of hypnotic conditioning. They did a (possibly cooked)
demonstration with a doorman from the building they
were in and made him do stuff - afterwards he couldn't recall doing it
until he saw it on the tape, and even then he had no "memory" of the event.
The point I'm getting at seems to be that with various drugs and hynpotic
conditioning from birth, one could probably easily instill the required
behaviour in the clone forces such that when they went into battle, they would
channel their fear into some other response like hostility or determination or
whatever. Their minds would supply the rationale to explain it (since
obviously they wouldn't have done it if
there wasn't a good reason). And they'd probably forget ever doing it -
not that memory lapses or perceptual discontinuities aren't a part of combat
anyway due to stress.
I don't necessarily like the idea of a clone army, but don't sell short the
ability of a government with lots of money, lots of science and technology,
and a very minor dose of ethics to produce an army of very
dangerous semi-automata. Indoctrination might also well lead to martyr
like behaviours - it has in plenty of places where no drugs or hypno
conditioning is emplaced. None of these systems is foolproof, but all can work
fairly well I'd guess for some period of time. In the long run, you may be
digging yourself a rather nasty hole, but that's a tradition
of short-sighted government.
Now, I'd only ever use them as shock troops and as baddies for two reasons: 1)
I think in the long run they'd lose to troops with more creativity,
flexibility, and cunning and 2) you might well be opening yourself up for a
far worse situation when your tools "wake up". Also, of course, it's probably
cheaper to use a real robot to a "human automata".
Tom B
BTW - Someone brought up the Russian Revolution. In general, there are
VERY few revolutions that happen without the participation of both the
intelligentsia and the populace. Without the intelligentsia, there tends to be
a lack of planning, a lack of direction, and often times a lack of useful
tactics (and sometimes a lack of incitement to revolution). Without the
people, the intelligentsia won't get far. And many times, there are also
outside influences supporting the revolutions. Not always, just most times.
Revolutions are much easier with money, weapons, etc and with good, educated
leaders and with legions of men and women. With all of these, the task is
viable. Miss any one, the task is harder. Miss two, almost impossible to pull
off.
I still don't really believe in the idea of cloning a personallity to a new
body for soldiers, however...
If I were going to do it I would pick someone who was a fanatic as my base and
then alter what they were fanatical about. Yes,
people have a sense of self-preservation programmed in, but
people also seem to work around this quite well. I don't think I could strap a
bomb to myself, walk into a building, and set it off without extreme
circumstances, but that doesn't imply that others can't.
Speaking of conditioning, check out the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell.
Great movie and it gives some interesting insight into the results of extreme
conditioning of human soldiers from birth through adulthood and what happens
when they are no longer needed.
Mike
Michael Miserendino Senior Software Engineer Lincoln Re mtmiserendino@lnc.com
> owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU at internet 01/05/00 01:50PM >>>
How to get clones to act expendable?
I just saw a program on the RFK assassination. It could have been all
bunk - TV being the source of much BS. But it focused on Sirhan Sirhan
and his mental state. They spoke with a number of psychiatrists,
psychologists, and experts in various kinds of conditioning. One of the guys
they talked to pointed out that Sirhan exhibited all of the signs (the
compulsion to do something, the rationalization to justify it, and the loss of
memory about it) of hypnotic conditioning. They did a (possibly cooked)
demonstration with a doorman from the building they
were in and made him do stuff - afterwards he couldn't recall doing it
until he saw it on the tape, and even then he had no "memory" of the event.
The point I'm getting at seems to be that with various drugs and hynpotic
conditioning from birth, one could probably easily instill the required
behaviour in the clone forces such that when they went into battle, they would
channel their fear into some other response like hostility or determination or
whatever. Their minds would supply the rationale to explain it (since
obviously they wouldn't have done it if
there wasn't a good reason). And they'd probably forget ever doing it -
not that memory lapses or perceptual discontinuities aren't a part of combat
anyway due to stress.
I don't necessarily like the idea of a clone army, but don't sell short the
ability of a government with lots of money, lots of science and technology,
and a very minor dose of ethics to produce an army of very
dangerous semi-automata. Indoctrination might also well lead to martyr
like behaviours - it has in plenty of places where no drugs or hypno
conditioning is emplaced. None of these systems is foolproof, but all can work
fairly well I'd guess for some period of time. In the long run, you may be
digging yourself a rather nasty hole, but that's a tradition
of short-sighted government.
Now, I'd only ever use them as shock troops and as baddies for two reasons: 1)
I think in the long run they'd lose to troops with more creativity,
flexibility, and cunning and 2) you might well be opening yourself up for a
far worse situation when your tools "wake up". Also, of course, it's probably
cheaper to use a real robot to a "human automata".
Tom B
BTW - Someone brought up the Russian Revolution. In general, there are
VERY few revolutions that happen without the participation of both the
intelligentsia and the populace. Without the intelligentsia, there tends to be
a lack of planning, a lack of direction, and often times a lack of useful
tactics (and sometimes a lack of incitement to revolution). Without the
people, the intelligentsia won't get far. And many times, there are also
outside influences supporting the revolutions. Not always, just most times.
Revolutions are much easier with money, weapons, etc and with good, educated
leaders and with legions of men and women. With all of these, the task is
viable. Miss any one, the task is harder. Miss two, almost impossible to pull
off.
In a message dated 1/5/2000 11:00:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> books@mail.state.fl.us writes:
> I still don't really believe in the idea of cloning a personallity
I don't know the rest of this thread, but I've seen some hypathetical
aplications of cloning and gentic alterations. They start, for the most
part, with non-human subjects. Using this type of base its simple to
reprogram them to do things like moving into a building and blowing a bomb up.
The reason it is less complex is that there brain is not as complex and you
can change the paramiters with relitive ease. All of this is hypathetical of
course and may not hold up to the real world.
-Stephen (I'm back, I think)
The Soldier was a surprisingly good movie. More than the normal 2D film makers
seem to think people like. Similer in enjoyment to the old video "The Beast"
about a Russian tank crew in Afganistan that becomes lost and separated from
its parent unit and is stalked by a group of Mujahadin. Out for revenge.
Buck