On-going KV debate

12 posts ยท Mar 11 2000 to Mar 13 2000

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:13:25 -0500

Subject: On-going KV debate

Before I reply to Brian, let us consider our options:
1) ExtraSensory/Paranormal like Ro'kah
2) Pheremone triggered Ro'kah 3) Pheremone suppressed Ro'kah 4) Body language
triggered Ro'kah

What does each offer?

1) Offers inscrutability to KV and Humans. Offers explanations for why it
works well in person but not so much so in AFVs, fighters, etc. Is kind of
"high fallutin" (though it ain't no Divine Piledriver, eh Mr.Davis?). It won't
be easily used against the KV by the humans. It won't be easily controlled by
the KV.

2) Not bad. But brings to mind the question of why a race that can build
stardrive hasn't at least sorted out ways to control the effects of airborne
chemicals? And would an AFV crewman going spaz not take the rest of the crew?
Similarly for starships? Seems kind of a simple
solution - even if they can't replicate or fully understand, simple
experimentation ought to teach them how to use tech to suppress this
pheremone. (So this might explain the AFV/Ship thing). It's okay, but it
seems to easy for the Humans to use as a weapon.

3) Not so hot. This one gets worse in isolation. Berserk fighter pilots are
not terribly useful, nor are berserk PA. And again, a high tech race ought to
be able to copy (even if only bottling it from homeworld KV and loading
capsules into sprayers in the PA or fighter) the suppressant and deploy it.
They'd have a high level of control over this behaviour then. Though it does
make it harder for humans to invoke Frenzy to sucker the KV, unlike #2.
Somehow I see "KV repellant" sprays being popular.

4) Not sure I buy this. The fear reaction of a rabbit is a far cry from the
reaction of a true sentient. I think they'd have long since developed a high
awareness of body language and controlled this. Plus again it is something the
humans could reasonably easily use against the KV.

Just my 0.02.

> Brian wrote:

What I've noticed is that most "Alien" races in Sci Fi are presented as one
homogenous group. The discussion of KV phsychology has been interesting, but I
wonder, would KV analyses of Human Psycchology be as easily undertaken?
Imagine taking specimens from one single culture here on earth, and trying to
form your opinion of the entire species from that. To be sure, there is a
great deal that all humans share in common, but there is also a huge amount of
diversity. Yet with the KV, and other aliens (to be fair), their entire
species has one culture?

** I don't believe this is the case at all. I believe the Clan system provides
for a very diverse culture and therefore probably many different customs clan
to clan. The part of psychology we've been discussing mostly revolves around
the physiology of the KV and how that directly impacts their culture. This
would be analogous to discussing
the adrenalin or testosterone in the male human - it manifests
differently somewhat from culture to culture, but its impact is more
generalized than many less physically linked cultural formations.

It seems to be the major trend in xenofiction - regardless of the Human
timeline presented, whether we've united or split further, no matter how far
we've journeyed into space or no, despite the multitude of cultures,
(Say,
for instance, a ship's crew with a Slavic helmsman, an Asian con officer, an
African communications officer, a Celtic physician and Engineer, and an
American captain... ok, so maybe that's a little exaggerated, but you get my
point), the aliens are always presented as having one culture and society for
their entire race, even if there are diverse political factions or classes
within that culture.

** Surely. In many cases, Earth is pointed out as being unusually diverse.
This is often one of the few character traits humans have since we're
generally not that smart, not that bright, and not that tough in much of Sci
Fi.

** Besides, how can you present anything more diverse in 350 pages? Good luck
presenting any sort of description of humans and their diversity in that
distance... therefore it should not surprise that SciFi books avoid it.
Further, given the fact that it is hard to make up N permutations with
verisimilitude to help you suspend disbelief, it is even less
surprising that no-one tries.

Why? I know the old arguement of a unified culture advancing faster, but

let's look at it from another point of view. A lot of the KV psychology

that's been discussed was a result of evolution, of methods developed for
dealing with the predators back home. OK, but what happens when you've
evolved far enough to not have to worry about ol' mr. T-rex, or the
solar storms, or what have you? Why evolve any further?

** The easy answer is to deal with other threats.

You've found your niche in
your environment.  The answer can't be individual competition alone -
there are plenty of species on earth where individual members compete with
other individual members, yet they have not built space ships yet (That we
KNOW
of....).

** Well, the white mice built the whole planet, so you gotta give credit where
credit is due.

This just supports my point - that these points to trends like
clannishness, tribalism, eventually ethnicism and nationalism. The tendency to
not only compete individually, but to also group together in social groups
that then compete with each other, is what drives development.

In short (I know, too late), once you've conquered your environment, and

other competing species, you have no need to evolve further unless there is
competition to compete with other members of your OWN species. Hence the fact
that the most advanced species on earth is also the most diverse and
factionalized.

** And you'll find that as much as it looks like we're more diverse, if you
take a close look at popular culture and media over the last 20 years, the
truth is the civilized world is getting less diverse. Convergence and Mergers
are driving our view of the world down a more and more limited range of paths
(the gov't doesn't really feel too bad about this either since they help spin
it) and global communications and
the Internet are having an enormous homogenizing effect on net-linked
cultures.

** Keep in mind, regionalism evolved from smaller townism (can't think of a
good name). Townism was antithetical to regionalism, and regionalism won out.
Regionalism then gave way to nationalism. Townism still existed, and so did
regionalism, but nationalism won out. Somewhere along the lines, if we push to
the next stage of globalism, then nationalism will be the third wheel and will
have to be overcome or converted. This is a hard one for many to swallow
today, but historically so was the idea of the nation state to many smaller
formations of humanity. And it sailed when the time was right. Well,
internationalism will fly when the situation comes to pass. A *real* UN in the
Tuffleyverse suggests this process has at least advanced somewhat from where
we are today. Obviously, nationalistic blocks are a stumbling block to
globalism (or interstellar unity since the blocks stretch beyond Earth).

** We're factionalized, but as technology and social development progresses,
though life may differ in locale A (I've had the Aussies explaining
backhanders and a few other patois terms I didn't follow lately), people in
locale B share enough in common with them to get on fine and be fairly similar
and cooperative. I might not understand every odd thing my Aussie pals say,
but we both have very similar lives and you'd find the similarities far
greater than the differences. This applies to any of the developed countries.
Even in Germany, where I don't speak the language, I'd feel at home in many
places because we have common culture (heck, we share... shudder... David
Hasselhof).

So why don't we ever, in our fiction, meet other species with the same
tendencies? I'd love to see a scifiverse where humans meet another race whose
home planet has as many different ethnicities and political divisions as does
Earth.

** For practical reasons and game fun ones, I'd suggest the KV are as diverse
as the GZG list. They can communicate, cooperate, and interoperate, but they
represent many viewpoints and traditions and geographic distributions. At GZG
ECC III, the Nac'Sol clan (the
swamp/jungle KV) got the toe from the Kol'Kol (mountain/hill KV) to the
point where a Kol'Kol squad killed Nac'Sol wounded for being cowardly and
lying down on the job. And yet they cooperated enough to execute a
large military operation with some degree of success - the differing
views only came out in small moments. I think this goes a long way to
addressing your points.

From: Thomas Anderson <thomas.anderson@u...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 11:04:52 +0000 (GMT)

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Thomas Barclay of the Clan Barclay wrote:

> Before I reply to Brian, let us consider our options:

5) Subliminal voice triggered Ro'kah

> What does each offer?

5) doesn't require introduction of paranormal effects into an otherwise
hard-sf background (personally, i find it distasteful to bring in psi
effects unless we absolutely have to); isn't affected by being in a sealed
suit / fighter / afv; isn't affected by closing one's eyes (as body
language would be); works over audio-only comms links

tom

From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@h...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:07:15 PST

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

To a certain extent, yes, and all very good points. However, I want it
understood that I was not necessarily referring to the KV specifically, only
using them as an example. And the fact remains, despite the clans, they

still are, in the end, fairly unified when it comes to how they deal with
other races and with space exploration. As for the trend towards political
unification on Earth, I'll believe it when I see it.

The point was, WE achieved space flight without unification, why can't other
races? I'd love to see a story line where, when humans meet this other
culture, after a few years of tension and even conflict between us and the
aliens, we start learning more about each other, and building alliances
-
not necessarily alliances between all human nations to fight the aliens, but
between certain alien "nations" if you will and our own, tenuous at first due
to xenophobia, but growing, until the interplay between the aliens and between
us and the aliens is as diverse and complex as our own interaction.

OUR differing views come out a hell of a lot more often, why shouldn't theirs?

----Original Message Follows----
From: Thomas Barclay of the Clan Barclay <kaladorn@home.com>
- the differing
views only came out in small moments. I think this goes a long way to
addressing your points.

From: Ground Zero Games <jon@g...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:16:46 +0000

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> To a certain extent, yes, and all very good points. However, I want it

Wait till you see what we've got lined up for Earth politics AFTER the Xeno
War is over....!

<GRIN>

From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@h...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 12:59:00 PST

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

This is, of course, most significant for those who follow the story
line/universe.  I don't - I love the game mechanics, but I'm afraid you
wer
far too successful in your attempt to come up with a generic system - it

worked. I long ago decided to apply it to my own history line.

But it will be entertaining to see the stir it causes on this list. *no grin,
but a slight smirk*

From: Jeremy Sadler <jsadler@e...>

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 10:03:42 +1000

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> OUR differing views come out a hell of a lot more often, why shouldn't

Since the KV are still rather unknown to humanity, perhaps we haven't seen yet
the diversity of their culture. I mean in Rot Hafen, we saw two (I think)
Clans. There have to be more. Maybe these two are the Clans that hold power in
the areas that are in touch with humanity (similar to the fact that perhaps
the OU and NAC hold power in the areas that touch KV). Other Clans are kept
away from humanity by the threat of war with the controlling Clans.

Thus for example, say the KV have a system of ten to twelve Clans, each
jockeying for position, each sometimes fighting and then supporting others,
each doing things and then blaming other Clans. Maybe they have a
representative council of Clans, who report to a Grand Mother (hey, I'm on a
roll here!) Or maybe they don't, and each Clan really fends for itself -
which sounds even better, and gives more credence to the two Clans in contact
with humanity keeping the others away (for the glory of the hunt
maybe? As shown by Rot Hafen - and history - we humans will cast aside
our differences and band together to face an outside threat. Given their
strong Clan structure, I doubt the KV would do that. They'd want all the glory
of the hunt to go to their own Clan).

Just some thoughts.:)

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 20:37:53 -0500

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> Since the KV are still rather unknown to humanity, perhaps we

The KV are going past the IF to attack the PAU, IIRC, and there's also a
thrust into a less important area (i.e., where
none of my settlements are located)--according to the maps
Nyrath did. And somehow they got to Rot Hafen, wherever that is.

From: jfoster@k... (Jim 'Jiji' Foster)

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 23:41:39 -0600

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> At 10:03 AM 3/12/00 +1000, you wrote:

Actually, I finally remembered what all this Kravak/alien culture
discussion reminded me of: a rather good little novel by Walter Jon Willams
entitled Voice of the Whirlwind. One of the central forces in the book were
aliens who: a) had different factions, which they successfully hid from
humanity for quite some time b) use a pheremonal mode of
communication/control in addition to vocal (IIRC, pheremones of a leader
could 'control' or at least affect the emotional state of his subordinates...
yet they were intelligent and competitive in a rather Byzantine way) and, most
interestingly, c) certain humans, when exposed to alien pheremones, became
*addicted* to them.

Kravak addiction, anyone? At any rate, the book is an excellent read, both
in term of cyberpunk-type technology and social structure, a smidgin of
the horrors of corporate warfare, and a pretty nifty alien race which seems to
parallel a lot of the thought going into the Kravak.

From: Ground Zero Games <jon@g...>

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:53:09 +0000

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

> At 10:03 AM 3/12/00 +1000, you wrote:

I'll have to search for this one, its a WJW novel I haven't come across
-
I've read a good bit of his stuff, and it was Angel Station that inspired
several of the ideas about the Sa'Vasku (including their use of
"volitional" and non-volitional" constructs).

From: Tom McCarthy <tmcarth@f...>

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 14:18:59 -0500

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

To help your search:

Voice of the Whirlwind Walter Jon Williams
ISBN 0-812-55785-9

From: Donald Hosford <hosford.donald@a...>

Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:33:11 -0500

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

A very good book IMHO.

I especially liked the idea of the hero cloning himself, to solve the mistery.

Donald Hosford

> Tom McCarthy wrote:

> To help your search:

From: JohnDHamill@a...

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:33:02 EST

Subject: Re: On-going KV debate

In a message dated 3/11/00 11:39:20 PM Central Standard Time,
> jfoster@kansas.net writes:

<< Actually, I finally remembered what all this Kravak/alien culture
discussion reminded me of: a rather good little novel by Walter Jon Willams
entitled Voice of the Whirlwind. One of the central forces in the book were
aliens who: a) had different factions, which they successfully hid from
humanity for quite some time b) use a pheremonal mode of
 communication/control in addition to vocal (IIRC, pheremones of a
leader could 'control' or at least affect the emotional state of his
subordinates... yet they were intelligent and competitive in a rather
Byzantine way) and, most interestingly, c) certain humans, when exposed to
alien pheremones, became *addicted* to them.

Kravak addiction, anyone? At any rate, the book is an excellent read, both
 in term of cyberpunk-type technology and social structure, a smidgin of
the horrors of corporate warfare, and a pretty nifty alien race which seems to
parallel a lot of the thought going into the Kravak.

> [quoted text omitted]
That is a very good book, with some interesting ideas in it. I was thinking
that the aliens were more like what i thought of the Sa'Vasku. They (the

aliens in Walter Jon Williams book) used bio-tech like the Sa'Vasku do,
and their drones were totally loyal to the leader of the clan. All in all, a
good book, and an interesting race of aliens.

John