> Doug_Evans/CSN/UNEBR@UNebMail.UNeb.EDU wrote:
line JT
> mentioned earlier. ;->=
Wow, this brought up a LOT of interesting discussion and opinions! I've just
read through the dozen or so reactions on the subject, and thought I'd try to
clarify the [OFFICIAL] viewpoint a bit.....
When I said (typed?) the "no good guys" line, it was actually in response to
someone (sorry, can't recall who) that was quite violently opposed to the idea
of the NAC in particular being seen as the Men in the White Hats, while all
other nations were just scummy foreigners (and therefore bad).
The point I was making is that this is not the case - most nations THINK
they are on the side of "right", and nearly all governments are/will be
riddled with corruption and power seekers (the last man to enter Parliament
with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes.....). What I should have said,
probably, is that there are no NATIONS that are entirely "good", just as there
are none that are entirely "bad" (at least
by their own frames of reference) - they all have skeletons in their
closets. This doesn't mean, however, that there are no INDIVIDUAL heroes (and
villains) - there can be as many of these as you like, valiantly
fighting for the principles they believe are right.
If I had ANY idea the furor my simple words would have caused...
Sorry, Jon, *I* understood and accepted what you meant. Being a US'er and
of half British-descent, I actually have a prejudice TOWARDS the NAC
being
white-hats. I have to work actively against accepting the local
'anti-Frog'
antipathy to FSE. Weirds me out, as I'd expect the emotion directed against
IF, or ESU, or even LLAR. Heck, even the NSL get more respect! 'Who once were
are friends...'
Yes, I accept there have been evil governments, whole countries doing evil
things. But I do not belive in evil peoples. I thought that was close to being
accepted.
Unfortunately, most of that evil was done in the name of stamping evil out. So
it goes.
Apologies all, can we talk about little spaceships and tanks again?
The_Beast
> If I had ANY idea the furor my simple words would have caused...
Doug, NO need to apologise at all - it generated a lot of interesting
comment, and was a lot more on-topic than many of the threads on the
list! It is this sort of discussion of players' perceptions of the background
that helps to shape the way we go with the timeline in the future.
In a message dated 7/22/98 3:59:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jon@gzero.dungeon.com writes:
> What I should have said, probably, is that there are no NATIONS that
I can echo these sentiments, both Warzone and Chronopia histories deal with
large power blocks, be they corporations or empires. Since our games are more
fantasy based than in the "real" world:) like GZG backgrounds we do have our
true bad guys, evil forces if you will. The good guys are better defined as
shades of gray. In their own eyes they are the good guys or at least that is
what they tell everyone. There are heroes in these forces, personalities that
are fighting the good fight irrespective of company policy. This type of setup
seems more realistic to me than the more traditional view of the white hats
and black hats factions.
In message <l03010d01b1db41f9d792@[195.188.107.158]> Ground Zero Games writes:
> >Doug_Evans/CSN/UNEBR@UNebMail.UNeb.EDU wrote:
line JT
> >> mentioned earlier. ;->=
I think you're looking in the wrong place for "modern myths". GZG games are
generally angled towards a "hard science fiction" ethos of (gleefully) harsh
reality, as opposed to some mythic nonsense about young princesses and old
wizards. Heavy Gear is the same. I don't know anything about Warzone.
There is, you know, more than one genre of SF-and-fantasy. I don't
think there's any general shift towards Hard SF games over any other genre...
look at all the gothy stuff out there.
[...]
> When I said (typed?) the "no good guys" line, it was actually in
That was me... and I didn't really imagine that you and Mr.Blease
could be so crass. I was stirred to my long-winded rhetoric over
the idea being peddled that it would be lucky if the soldiery of some listed
nationalties, 300 years hence, would merely be rapists, while some would
obviously always be beyond reproach. I never did find out where that was
supposed to be going... <shrugs>
[...]
> This doesn't mean, however, that there are no INDIVIDUAL heroes (and
Why would a hero even have to fight for a principle? To draw analogies with
war films, I was blessed with the interesting coincidence that after I had
been to the cinema to catch "Starship Troopers" (a well executed satire,
rather than a proper war film) the telly provided me with another opportunity
to see the wonderful film "Zulu", which has to be the king of war films.
The soldiers in "Zulu" aren't fighting for any principles. They aren't
fighting any great evil. They aren't the forces of The Rebel Princess Victoria
fighting The Evil Zulu Empire. They aren't all fighting for the memories of
lost womenfolk, or to go through
some mythic boy-turns-to-man crap. They're just a bunch of
engineers and PBI in the wrong place, and their black foes aren't
portrayed as black-hearted either. Yet it remains a very moving
and unlaboured depiction of backs-to-the-wall soldierly *heroism*.
Entirely non-mythic, non-Joseph-Campbell, non-Hollywood *heroism*.
I guess the counterexample would be the dreadfully lame and overlong
"Braveheart" which clumsily constructs a nation of evil repressive and
corrupting murderers, rapists, and homosexuals to battle against, while
building up it's hero with so much heroic motivation that it remains a wonder
that he didn't explode. Bleh. I found it too awful to even laugh at. I can
live without that laboured crap on the tabletop.
"Your Mileage May Vary".
> David Brewer wrote:
> I guess the counterexample would be the dreadfully lame and
I guess that would have been the NAC in one of it's earlier incarnations...
As mentioned in other posts, it's an excellent setting - the fact that
we all have opinions on the background, and keep returning to it with our own
views, and it can survive that - means it's great. Keep going the way
you are.
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]