Hi all,
The following NEW RELEASES are NOW IN PRODUCTION; they should be up on the
webstore very shortly; pics to follow when I've had the chance to take them!
New NSL classes:
FT 522 NSL Strikeboat (pack of 3) £1.50 per pack
FT 525 NSL "new construction" Destroyer, Brocken class (pack of 2) £2.50 per
pack
New NAC class:
FT 102B NAC new Scoutship (pack of 3) £1.50 per pack.
Coming very soon (should be available by next week, will announce when
ready!):
New Israeli Space Defence Force ships:
FT 1501 New Israeli light fighters, Kfir class (pack of 6) £1.00 per pack
FT 1505 New Israeli Destroyers, Tzayad class (pack of 2) £2.50 per pack
FT 1507 New Israeli Escort/Patrol Cruiser, Maccabee class £2.50
each
FT 1510 New Israeli Battleship, Sabra class £5.00 each
....and lots more to come!
:-)
Hi all,
The following NEW RELEASES are NOW IN PRODUCTION; they should be up on the
webstore very shortly; pics to follow when I've had the chance to take them!
New NSL classes:
FT 522 NSL Strikeboat (pack of 3) £1.50 per pack
FT 525 NSL "new construction" Destroyer, Brocken class (pack of 2) £2.50 per
pack
New NAC class:
FT 102B NAC new Scoutship (pack of 3) £1.50 per pack.
Coming very soon (should be available by next week, will announce when
ready!):
New Israeli Space Defence Force ships:
FT 1501 New Israeli light fighters, Kfir class (pack of 6)* £1.00 per pack
FT 1505 New Israeli Destroyers, Tzayad class (pack of 2) £2.50 per pack
FT 1507 New Israeli Escort/Patrol Cruiser, Maccabee class £2.50
each
FT 1510 New Israeli Battleship, Sabra class £5.00 each
....and lots more to come!
:-)
> The following NEW RELEASES are NOW IN PRODUCTION; they should be up
Hi, Jon.
I forwarded your message to the Yahoo Stargrunt-Fullthrust list, as
there are a few people on that list that aren't on the main GZG mailing list.
> > The following NEW RELEASES are NOW IN PRODUCTION; they should be up
Thanks, Allan, that's fine. I'm not on the yahoo list myself, so feel free to
forward any news announcements like this at any time. BTW, the same goes for
anyone else who is on any other mailing lists
whose members might be interested, whether GZG-specific or general SF
gaming lists - feel free to forward any of the [OFFICIAL] news
announcements from the GZG-L if you think they would be of relevance.
Jeese, Jon, new ships are exciting and all that, but to post 'em twice?
;->=
REALLY looking forward to a look at new ships; wondering about the new NSL
DD's in a big way!
The_Beast
> Jon T. wrote:
> New NSL classes:
Um... according to FB1, the Brocken class is a new *BB* class (entered service
in 2179). May I (well, Dean actually <g>) suggest that the new DD is called
the Lutzow (or possibly Lützow, I don't remember) instead?
Later,
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Um... according to FB1, the Brocken class is a new *BB* class (entered
> service in 2179). May I (well, Dean actually <g>) suggest that the
I hate to pitch in on this one, but an Israeli friend of mine also notes
that "Sabra" is more normally connected with atrocities committed during
the war in Lebenon. In his words, it would be like calling a USN vessel
"Vietnam".
If there are nicer connotations for the name, could some nice person let
me know?
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Lachlan Atcliffe wrote:
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
"USS Mai Lai", perhaps. Not likely...
Sabra refugee camp is actually in Lebanon; in 1982 Phalangist Lebanese allies
of Israel entered the camp and, depending on who you believe,
killed 100-3500 people. The current PM of Israel may have been involved
somehow, in a chain-of-command fashion. (do I even need to add that this
is all hugely controversial? And that further details would be wildly
OT?)
> If there are nicer connotations for the name, could some nice person
Google is good. 'Translation of sabra' got me this:
http://www.midwestworldfest.org/israel/frames_e/03e.html#t13
"Sabra" is a prickly pear cactus. Colloquially it means a native Jewish
Israeli or someone who grew up there. From other Google hits, it's also used
as both a first & last name, possibly in Arabic as well... (is it actually a
loan word to Hebrew from Arabic?)
Given the 'native Israeli' part, it's not a *bad* name for a 24th Century NI
ship, but here in the 21st Century it might not be a good choice for a model
name.
> I hate to pitch in on this one, but an Israeli friend of mine also
Noam has Sabra as a planet name in the New Israel sphere. I'll have to search
the timeline to see if it might be mentioned there.
I'd made the My Lai (sp?) connection myself, but was surprised how painful
that still is...
The_Beast
> On Jan 29, 2004, at 2:00 AM, The GZG Digest wrote:
That's the first time I've ever heard of this.
Sabra has always been for me a name for native Israelis - like the
desert fruit: tough and prickly on the outside, sweet on the inside. My mom's
a Sabra. Perhaps it's living in the States, but in my experience Sabra does
not have that negative connotation. If I'm in the minority, however, I guess
I'd rather change it as well. Am I really in the minority?
> Jon T. wrote:
Oh bugger, missed that... well, FB1 was written quite a long time
ago. Glad someone reads this stuff! ;-)
[Mind you, I DID check the blurb I'd written on the Waldburg in FB1,
and was pleased to see that it mentioned a new DD class coming up, so
that fits....]
OK, will rename the new DD in the lists; Lutzow is as good a name as any
other, so consider it official.
Guess I'll just have to do a new BB as well now, just to use the name...
> That's the first time I've ever heard of this.
That's the only connotation that I've heard.
Noam,
I use it in the same fashion here in NJ/NY/CT. Not
sure about the referenced to the camp. All that I can find out points to
propaganda and no real assualt but as was mentioned this is a very hot button
issue and should stay offlist.
Bob Makowsky
> --- Noam Izenberg <noam.izenberg@jhuapl.edu> wrote:
Greetings!
....
> Oh bugger, missed that... well, FB1 was written quite a long time
Does this mean we might see the new NAC Tallahachi Destroyers as
well? ;-)
> From what I could see from the new scout it looks very promising. Hope
Greetings,
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 06:10:16 +0000 Lachlan Atcliffe
> <u1m87@ugm.keele.ac.uk> wrote:
> If there are nicer connotations for the name [Sabra], could some nice
Well, I used to work (and do crosword puzzles) with a nice female engineer
named Sabra... does that count? She was of Pakistani descent and used to spend
rather a lot of time being photographed for company (British Aerospace as was)
literature as she was a classic example of
"equal opportunity", being both non-caucasian and female; we used to
tease her that if she'd come out as a lesbian and become a single mother, she
wouldn't need to work! She said that her husband would object.
When last heard of, she'd moved to Airbus in Toulouse to be with said husband.
Phil
----
"We gotta get out into Space / If it's the last thing we ever do!"
-- Return to the Forbidden Planet
> Greetings!
Ohhh yes..... ;-)
Not sure quite when, but it'll get done.
> From what I could see from the new scout it looks very promising. Hope
The 102B scout is ready for sale now. Paul - if you're reading this,
the 102B, 522 and 525 can go up for immediate availability. The other stuff in
the new photos (NI, Islamics etc) will be for sale
as soon as the production moulds are made - hopefully next week,
preparations for Fantizan allowing!
[quoted original message omitted]
Last jew (by blood, my aunt married a Jewish gentlemen in her lifetime,
foolishly let the dude get away and kept kicking herself the rest of her life)
in the family was my grandfather but grew up around Conservative and Orthodox
Jews and Sabra was never anything but a positive reference to a native
Israeli.
Gracias, Glenn
"Half the Harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to
feel important. They don't mean to do harm - but the harm does not
interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are
absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." T. S. Elliot
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:47:39 -0500 Noam Izenberg
> <noam.izenberg@jhuapl.edu> writes:
> --- Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> Given the 'native Israeli' part, it's not a *bad* name for a 24th
This is the best point made, and I think a lot of people missed it. There are
actually two questions about this ship name:
1) would a fictional future government use this name for a ship?
and
2) should GZG use this name for a miniature?
The example of 'USS Vietnam" or "USS Mi Lai" (sp?) are not quite analogous.
However, there are a couple of exaples that are closer.
a) In the 1990's there was a movement started in spain to canonize Queen
Isabella in recognition of her efforts on behalf of Catholicism (the
reconquista, etc.). This caused a great deal of outcry from both the jewish
and muslem communities around the med because, although she is a national hero
in Spain, the opponents felt that her canonization would minimize what
happened to their communities.
b) There was a comment on this list in 2003 about Andrew Jackson being
unpopular with indigenous American tribes. It was news to me. I only knew him
as president and as the victor of New Orleans (1815).
c)In Nov 2003 there was a youth group in CA. of muslem college students who
organized a football tourney for over the semester break. Most of
the team names were sports-related, fun or nonsensical ("1st and Goal",
"Ironmen", etc.), however a few had, to American perception, an offensively
militant flavor, such as "Intefada". This made the national news and some
parents withdrew their sons from the event.
The question of importance is not what the name means to an Isreali in 2280 or
in 2004. The question is is there someone else, such as Lebanese (of whom
there are a lot in the New World and Down Under), in 2004 who might take it
the wrong way. Might there be someone who doesn't care at all about our hobby
but just runs across the name on the store website and causes bad press? Might
there be American or Canadian or Austrailian FT players of Lebanese descent or
origin who might take offense?
In the end...
Might the FSE name a ship or class "Santa Regina Izabella"? Maybe. Should GZG
market a miniature with that name? I don't know.
Might the IFed name a ship or class "Intefada"? Probably. Should GZG market a
miniature with that name? No.
Might NI name a ship or class "Sabra"? Probably. Should GZG market a miniature
with that name? No.
How about some suggestions for Hebrew names that can't offend anyone? Words
with no secondary associations. Perhaps simple translations of words like
"Valiant", "Victorious", "Illustrious", "Lightning", etc. Just avoid nicknames
and 20th century Israeli battles and heros (every man's national hero is
another man's national enemy).
J
> Jared Hilal wrote:
> the store website and causes bad press? Might there be American or
Yes. No matter what you do, some idiot with too, too much time on their
hands might take offense. I can easily imagine someone being offended that
there is an "Islamic Federation" or "New Israel" at all, much less what their
ships are named.
Besides, <vbg> *I* would be offended if Jon *doesn't* name it the Sabra class.
> Jared Hilal wrote:
> the store website and causes bad press? Might there be American or
Yes. No matter what you do, some idiot with too, too much time on their
hands might take offense. I can easily imagine someone being offended that
there is an "Islamic Federation" or "New Israel" at all, much less what their
ships are named.
Besides, <vbg> *I* would be offended if Jon *doesn't* name it the Sabra class.
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Don M wrote:
> Jared Hilal wrote:
And yet this doesn't stop people from producing historical miniatures,
like the Lee/Grant tank, the Sherman tank (how many folks in the
southern U.S. like *Sherman*?), the Patton tank. How about the Richtoffen
class space ship? No one had relatives shot down by the most famous flying ace
of all time? Didn't I see a Rommel tank? He sure kicked a lot of British ass
in North Africa for a long time...
As has been stated by others, if you give folks enough time, they'll find
something to offended about. I wounldn't worry about it too much.
My opinions are free, and you're entitled to 'em!:)
From: Jared Hilal <jlhilal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OFFICIAL] NEW FT SHIPS!!
> Might there be someone who
I'l agree with Laserlight's and others' comments that those who look for
offense will find it. Moerso, they will have already found it before finding
any specific ship class name in FT. In addition, in the end, I take issue with
the original point. Sabra in particular has been and continues to be more
associated in most places with the definition "native Israeli" than with the
specific event at the Lebanese camp. I would argue that those places where the
most common association is otherwise would be generally unhappy with the
concept of New Israel and of the portrayal of IF in Full Thrust FH.
FYI, Lightning in Hebrew is "barak". That's the BC class in my NI fleet, and
also a (great?, dismal? offensive?) recent PM of Israel. I suppose there'll be
trouble with the Ben Gurion DN, and the Tzion (Zion) CVH as well (though I was
actually thinking of changing the
class name to Herzl - not much of an improvement to some, I imagine).
NI ("We are the Knights who say...")
> --- John K Lerchey <lerchey@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
A false example. As it is a HISTORICAL (caps for emphasis) miniature, the mini
company can't be blamed for what a government named it. Also note that
1) "Lee" and "Grant" were BRITISH appellations for the American M-3
medium tank. The US did not start naming tanks until the M-4
"Sherman". Historically, the British have been much freer in using the names
of skilled CSA general than the US has. E.g. the WW1 14" moniter "HMS Robert
E. Lee".
2) None of the names given to historical tanks are associated with atrocities
(Pershing, Patton, Abrams, Bradley). They were successful generals, but none
massacred civilians. Even the ACW generals, both Union and Confederate, fought
a relativly civilized war, when compared to the 20th C.. Those who didn't
(like some of the raiders in the west) stand out from the others in a negative
way.
3) Some fine generals DO have negative associations, even though they fought a
"civilized" or "clean" war (like Nathan Bedford Forrest), and you don't see
their names given to anything.
4) Even for those ACW generals who were controverial, there is a limit
to how far things go. E.g. we have the M-4 "Sherman", but there is no
"USS March to the Sea".
> How about the Richtoffen class space ship? No one had
Yes he did, but he did it cleanly. Rommel didn't massacre civilians or
captured hospital staff, for example. Erwin Rommel and Heinz Guderian were
fine generals who fought skillfully. There was another panzer general of their
caliber, but you never see anything named "Sepp Dietrich". This is because he
DID engage in atrocities such as killing prisoners, was an SS officer rather
than Wehrmacht like Rommel and Guderian, and was well known for his support of
Hitler's "social policies".
If GZG wants to name their hypothetical new NSL grav tank "Guderian" to
complement the "Rommel" hover tank, I have no problem with it, but I would
advise against the name "Sepp Deitrich".
Perhaps a compromise can be found. For example, in the 1980s the US began
naming SSBNs after US states and SSNs after US cities. When it came to "USS
Corpus Christi", there were complaints from many european countries, both NATO
allies and the Vatican. So the ship was named "USS City of Corpus Christi" to
remove any confusion. Everyone was satisfied.
J