You have to remember that nukes are not the ultimate weapons that some people
seam to think they are (although they are nasty). The nukes used on japan were
crude, small devices compaired to what is posible today (I think the largest
nuke detonated is 50 mt?). Also, nukes are going the other way as well, making
them smaller, with less fallout, but still powerful enough to take out a
target, not everything with 30 miles.The ones used on japan had mixed results,
with the first one taking out the city targeted, but the second didn`t dammage
the city too badly, because it was dropped onto a industrial complex sheilded
from the city by a hill (sorry, forgot which bomb on which city). This was due
to inacuracy that modern weapons have overcome, making smaller weapons more
viable due to being able to hit it`s target and destroy it with a smaller
warhead, which also has less of the disadvantages of the bigger warheads. As
for nukes in space, the effects are a lot less against spaceships due to no
atmosphere to transmit the shock
way/blast effects of a nuke. A nuke detonating in close proximaty (or
contact) with a ship is a different matter, but the missile would have to
get pass the pds of the target. A planix/gatling type weapon would be
useless at long range, but would be perfect at close range, preventing the
missiles making contact with the ship. That is not considering the problems of
getting a missile into close or physical contact with a high speed evading
target. Just my take on the idea.
> At 07:13 12/03/01 +0000, BIF wrote:
I'll have to go look this up to get the specifics but in general it was
originally thought that nuclear explosions in space would have less effect
than one within the atmosphere because of a lack of atmosphere to transmit the
shockwave, what has been found is that the explosion propagates (this is the
part I would have to go look up, for what type of radiation it was) radiation.
This radiation upon colliding with a object released it's energy as kinetic
energy, in effect a shock wave.
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 12:57 13/03/01 +0000, BIF wrote:
Still haven't found the reference but I'll keep looking.
G'day Bif,
> PS-The bit about nukes getting smaller,
Taht's very xenocentric of you;) The reasons humans don't toss them around
(especially those to do with spoiling the real estate) may be the very same
ones for why the KV don't.
Cheers
Beth
> Derek Fulton wrote:
> I'll have to go look this up to get the specifics but in general it
Just about every type of radiation (alpha, beta, gamma, IR, neutrons... not
sure neutrons are usually thought of as "radiation", but they're there),
though the proportions vary with the design of the warhead.
> This radiation upon colliding with a object released it's energy as
It does, and at short distances from a nuke you get that effect in an
atmosphere as well. However, according to my nuclear physicist
acquaintancies this radiation-induced shock wave is very much weaker
than the mostly heat-induced shock wave you get in an atmosphere.
Regards,
> I thought the shock wave was formed from the vaporised bomb mass
Ummm...
Little Known (would you believe Unclassified??) Facts about Nuclear Devices
1) If memory serves, something like 60% of the energy released by fission
is in the form of X-rays. These then heat up the surrounding atmosphere
something chronic, and that's how you get the Fireball. Basically a few
hi-energy
photons get absorbed by atmospheric molecules that get all excited and emit
lots of low-energy photons.
So atmosphere => just as much energy released, but it's in X-rays.
2) Why talk about Fission rather than Fusion? Most Thermonuclear devices (and
all the big ones) get the bulk of their energy from Fission. In a typical
Teller-Ulam multistage device, the initiating Fission physics package
emits lots of
X-rays (see above) and fissions a few percent of the mass of the Pu.
These
X-rays
then are used to "squeeze" a Deuterium/Tritium Hydride mix via a highly
X-ray-absorbent
tamper. This then releases more energy, but not vastly more than the original
initiator. However, the energy comes out to a great extent in the form of Slow
Neutrons. These
In message <000c01c0ab58$9ff243a0$f2c0893e@inty>
> "Bif Smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip a lot]
> BIF
Actually, the KV probably use Kinetic Energy weapons for bombardment -
more precision, less mess (unless they chuck a big one like a 'dino
killer' - which is unlikely - they probably want habitable planets
intact as much as humans do).
Or, even better, the glory of a ground assault :-)
Frankly, if anyone is likely to start lobbing planet-killers, its the
Sa'vas'ku (stir, stir) :-)
Another problem with "nukes-in-space" is they tend to effectivily
degrade to about uselessness sensor systems for a bit after detonation. In
fact they MAY have a very good use in breaking missile locks. Drop a nuke and
manuver like heck to NOT be in the sensor cone of an incoming missile once it
breaks past
the radiation/debris/EMP effect.
Randy
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:28:20 +1100 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
<snip> meant as a argument to the
> >dirt huggers on the list as to why
OOOh, a new kind of PC; SC (Stellar Correctness) *or* a.k.a. XC (Xenological
Correctness.)
> The reasons humans don't toss them around (especially those to do with
Perhaps but the little I have read about the GZG aliens is that the KV seem
pretty oriented to total genocide or worse of the offending human presence
("why" they are that way of course is part of the
psuedo-history. And a good idea for a thread...)
The KV in the web story I read (non-canonical I assume) - the multi
parter, which I had to skim, once, at work - made Starguard Ralbai
appear almost friendly and my beloved Nektons almost neighborly...
> Cheers
> -----Original Message-----
be
> used.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-- Kosh
---
> Perhaps but the little I have read
I think that's down to personal taste. That maybe how its interpreted for the
first few years and so, but once people concerned with understanding
rather than shooting finally get involved on both sides I think perceptions
would change. A cultural clash on that scale would always lead to tension
(this is after all a wargame), but I think we can allow even our aliens a bit
more depth;)
Just my 2 razoos
Beth
Someone pointed out a proliferation concern from the former Sov Bloc powers
(Russians particularly). The proliferation is not just of actual munitions but
of trained scientists no longer being paid. And as of last I read, the
Russians had lost track of (ie walked away on their own) about 80 Nuclear
Demolitions Munitions (suitcase nuke). The feeling was that some of them were
probably sold by the gaurds who hadn't been paid in long periods. The Russians
would probably love to help the Americans batten down the Nuclear hatches, if
they could. But they seem remarkably ill equipped (financially and
procedurally).
An interesting book, though a bit older and no doubt taken with a grain of
salt, by the name of One Point Safe puts a bit of a perspective on this.
The first thing I learned reading that book is that there is a US general who
got a decoration for stopping (only barely) an incursion by Bader Meinhof
gangers into a nuclear storage facility. It was repelled at the last minute by
quick reinforcement of the garrison.
Things are probably better of late, but there are a lot of missing (well, they
might be missing, but if you'd seen Russian paperwork, it'd apparently be hard
to tell) weapons (N B and C) and some missing brainiacs too.
Enough to give you the willies, if you really think about it. Especially with
Saddam, the Iranian
guys, and the likes of Al-Queda looking for their
services.....
T.
> Thomas Barclay Wrote:
<SNIP>
> the Russians had lost track of (ie walked away on
<another snip>
> Things are probably better of late, but there
Too bad they only show relatively large weapons. Would be more interesting to
see 10-50 KT.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
> Gee... Thanks...
Sing it brother...there's some *real* bad stuff out there....
> Too bad they only show relatively large weapons. Would be more
Yep--more likely to happen, but slightly less worrisome if it does. I'd
only be "immediately downwind" from most of the targets around here
(Norfolk/Virginia Beach), instead of "within the blast radius".
Or maybe that would make it "*more* worrisome"...
After talking with a "friend" who worked on some military projects, I have a
very healthy fear of N and C, and a paranoia over B...
B... No limiting factors like in N or C... No certain control factors... No
containment, delayed effects for maximum dispersal... Just ask the Chinese
about the occasional outbreaks of bubonic plague, or
small pox they _still_ suffer from... And that from testing in WW2.
Sometimes a frontal lobe lobotomy doesn't sound so bad. Rand.
> At 09:31 AM 4/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
[quoted original message omitted]
G'day,
> and a paranoia over B...
And with the ice melting there's all those old natural stores just waiting
to get out.... ancient germs, the remains of past small-pox epidemics...
its enough to make people want to invent FTL and go colonise a "nice" planet
;)
From: ~ On Behalf Of Thomas Barclay
Sent: 19 April 2002 10:57
Subject: Nukes
> ... as of last I read, the Russians had lost
> Things are probably better of late, but there
I certainly wouldn't want to encourage complacency on this topic, but I can
offer you another theory (no references to evidence however.)
What if the missing materials never existed in the first place? Given the twin
Soviet evils of mandatory production targets and offical corruption, is it not
possible that certain factories were ordered to produce X bombs but only
succeeded in manufacturing X - Y devices. Given
dire consequences for failing to fulfill the order, the managers reported X
bombs complete, with the fictitous Y in "storage". These were only missed when
they were physically required, in this case for decommissioning.
In the old Soviet order, the truth would have been discovered and suppressed,
but today (as we saw with the loss of the Kursk) the military leaks
information at all levels, so the story of the "missing" materials gradually
filtered out.