> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
...Various large Snips...JTL
> My view - biased by Starfire, but that's rather unavoidable in my
Having failed to make my point, I try again.
The stealth ship is 22 inches from my ship. I fire a type 3 beam,
because the ship is within the range where I can see it on my sensors. The
type two beam cannot hit the stealth ship because it cannot see the stealth
ship using
the same sensors. Why, because the type 2 has had the weapons range
reduced by the stealth not the sensor range. The stealth directly affects the
performance of my weapons on my ship even when I have a sensor lock on the
target ship. Do you see a problem here, I do.
Bye for now,
> John Leary wrote:
[snipped my vision of how battery fire works - I repeat it below anyway]
> Having failed to make my point, I try again.
You didn't fail to make your point. I just don't agree with your premises, so
I find your point rather pointless (pun only
semi-intended).
> The stealth ship is 22 inches from my ship. I fire a type 3
With you so far.
> The type two beam cannot hit the stealth ship because it cannot see
And this is where we differ in opinion. I'll try to explain myself in more
detail this time. It'll take some time, but I promise to return to your
example at the end of the post.
I see one "beam die" worth of shooting as a whole bunch of shots. Could
be twenty, could be a hundred, could be any large number - doesn't
really matter. In order to inflict enough damage to count as 1 damage point, a
certain number of these need to hit the target. Due to long ranges, a normal
fire solution doesn't aim to get all shots to hit the target; instead it
saturates the probable area where the target will be when the shots arrive in
a pattern designed to (hopefully) achieve the required number of hits to
inflict 1 damage point. The number may vary between different battery sizes
depending on how much power goes into each shot; it doesn't really matter.
This means that even a "miss" can include a low number of hits and
inflict minor damage on the target, scratch the paint etc - but too
little for the granular FT damage system to record it.
In order to achieve saturation of the right area of space, you need two
things:
* Good focussing equipment (or the equivalent for plasma blobs or what have
you) to put the shots exactly where you planned, and
* A good notion of where the target is, and will be in the near future.
If you only have a vague notion of where the target is, you have to
disperse your fire pattern more to get at least some hits on it - but
this reduces the probability that you'll hit it enough times to reach 1 damage
point. The further away the target is, the poorer your notion on exactly where
the ship is will be and the longer it'll be able to move before your fire
reaches it, so the longer the range the more your fire pattern will be
dispersed. Beyond a certain range, which varies between the different weapon
types, the fire solution will either be too dispersed to be able to inflict
enough damage to count as 1 damage point or it will cover too small a volume
of space to have any measurable
chance of bracketting the intended target - in other words, the target
is "out of range" in FT terms.
As I see it, a Class-2 battery doesn't have as accurate focussing gear
as
a Class-3, or it may be unable to put out as great a volume of fire, or
both. Either option means that the range where the Class-2 can no longer
bracket the target with a high enough density of shots to inflict at least 1
damage point is shorter than the corresponding range for the
Class-3.
If the target is stealthed, your notion of exactly where it is and where it is
going isn't as accurate as if it is not stealthed. This means that your fire
solutions need to cover a larger volume of space at any given range to bracket
the target than it would need to against an unstealthed target. Since the
number of shots your weapon can put out in a given time is in all likelyhood
fairly constant, a greater volume of space to cover
means a lower density of shots - and therefore a lower maximum range at
which the weapon can inflict FT-level damage.
So, to return to your example: The Class-2 isn't unable to *see* the
target. It, and your entire ship, is just unable to locate the target with
enough precision to narrow the volume where it might pass through
enough to allow the Class-2 put enough shots through that space to
inflict enough damage to make FT notice it.
The Class-3 is degraded in the same way - all *range bands* are reduced,
not just the *maximum* range. Against a Stealth-2 target the Class-3
throws 3 dice out to range 8, 2 dice from range 8 to range 16, and 1 die from
range 16 to range 24. Thus, at range 22 it would normally throw 2 dice. Since
the target in your example is stealthed, it has to spread its fire so much to
allow any hit at all that it only rolls 1 die; had it
been at range 25 (assuming a Stealth-2 target) not even the Class-3
would
be able to put enough shots into the probable location of the target -
because the probable location in question can be anywhere in too large a
volume of space.
> Do you see a problem here, I do.
No, I don't. I've described the reason why I don't see it as a problem
twice; I hope you see my point this time - even if you don't agree with
it, or its premises.
Regards,
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
XXX I am putting this in as a first impression of the message that
follows (in part). I have a feeling that the stealth (in you view)
is a mixture of 'stealth' and 'ECM (Wild Weasel)' and while the 'stealth' (a
completely passive system) and 'ECM (WW)' (an active Electronic system) can be
used together and they do similar (sort
of) things in very different ways. I feel this mixture may be a
large part of the communication difficulties as I see these as completely
different systems. JTL XXX
> John Leary wrote:
XXX Not a problem, the rapid pulse concept is perfectly valid. JTL XXX
> In order to achieve saturation of the right area of space, you need
XXX Weapons equipment isn't really important because it is all the same, it's
the apparent degredation of the weapons that bothers me. With the target at 22
inches in the prior example, and the
stealth ship on the sensors, and the 'A/3' battery able to fire
normally, I just cannot justify the inability of the 'B/2' to
fire/hit. The stealth aspect of the target ship is gone!
(Now you might be able to make a case for ECM (WW) degrading
the sensors at that range, but not stealth.) JTL
XXX
> If you only have a vague notion of where the target is, you have to
...Snip a portion that sounds like ECM effect...JTL
> So, to return to your example: The Class-2 isn't unable to *see* the
XXX This all sounds more in the area of ECM (WW) than stealth. JTL XXX
> > Do you see a problem here, I do.
I hope the additional comments clarify my understanding of what 'stealth' and
ECM (WW) are and the fact that they are not really the same. (Even if they
accomplish similar things in different ways.) Stealth is a passive system and
has no value once defeated.
ECM (WW) is an active system designed to fool/mislead the enemy
sensors. (and thereby degrade the performance of the enemy weapons.)
If all the discussions are completed, can we call for a vote?
Bye for now.
I hope the additional comments clarify my understanding of
> what 'stealth' and ECM (WW) are and the fact that they are not really
I understand Oerjan's "lots of shots in the right area" concept and agree with
it; however, I have to side with John's p.o.v. on the way stealth should work.
The function of stealth is to prevent the enemy from knowing you are there.
Once he has detected you, you can get hit just like anyone
else (exception: missile accuracy may be degraded). Granted I haven't
read each detail of every post, I get the impression that Oerjan is thinking
the
stealth affects weapons--I'd say it would affect the firecon instead.
(Philip has actually made the point previously, I think, that it wouldn't
really affect fire cons, which are very high power, narrow beams--it
should really just affect the search radars, which leans things more onto
John's side of the debate).
> John Leary wrote:
> Weapons equipment isn't really important because it is all the
But the 'A/3' battery *isn't* able to fire normally (2 dice). It is able
to fire at only half strength (1 die) at range 22 if the target is Stealthed.
> I hope the additional comments clarify my understanding of
They do clarify it, and they confirm my impression that our premises are very
different indeed.
> (Even if they accomplish similar things in different ways.)
The effects are close enough to being the same that the same game
mechanics can be used for'em IMO :-)
> Stealth is a passive system and has no value once defeated.
Not from what I've heard of today's stealth shapes. They (occasionally) allow
the target to shake off targetting radars, if only for short periods of time;
if this happens in a space battle you'll get very similar effects to what I
described.
Regards,
> Laserlight wrote:
> Granted I haven't read
I don't think I'm thinking that. I think I'm thinking that the Stealth affects
the fire control so as to degrade the fire solution, but the visible effect of
degrading the fire solution is that the weapons don't hit as well as they used
to.
Later,
> At 07:45 PM 1/27/99 +0100, Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
As someone who does this sort of thing for a living, I would like to disagree.
A Fire Control sensor is a very powerful radar system that takes at least the
amount of power used to scour the skies and focuses it on one particular
object. The problem is of course that a fire control sensor is like looking
through a straw, a very tight beam. While you can decrease the effectiveness
of a fire control sensor to get a fire control solution ("lock") by decreasing
your Radar Cross Section (stealth), this is not significant in the scale of
the energy and focus being used at the time. It is far more effective to
prevent someone from gaining a track on you to start with and thus preventing
them from queing their fire control sensors to gain a fire control solution on
you.
Gort, Klaatu barada nikto!
Well, I've been reading all the msgs on this here Stealth Tech thread (and
amazed how much traffic it's generated!), and thought while I have half a
minute, I'd throw in my $0.02:)
My take on the stealth system is that it fools the firing ship into thinking
that the target ship is further away than it really is. Hence the reductions
in the rangebands for all weapons. Whether it does this by active jamming, or
by hull design, or a combination of both, I don't know. I would *guess* active
jamming, in which case ECCM suites should be able to counter the effects. But
that's not something Noam and I have discussed (I don't know if Noam has even
given this any thought, really).
*shrug* Guess that means we gotta play more games! :-}
M 'worthless 2 cents worth' k
Stop the car??
...Snip...JTL
Guess that means we gotta play more games! :-}
> M 'worthless 2 cents worth' k
Indy, It cannot really be generating much traffic, I very seldom
have very much to say! :-)
The comment about dice is for real!
I am always ready to design a new ship to order! However,
the FCT shipyard at Harmony is building the number two hull and will be tied
up for a while yet.
Bye for now,
> Phillip E. Pournelle wrote:
> As someone who does this sort of thing for a living, I would
Thank for the comments.