New on the list

Hello all, I don't know if this is considered bad form or not, but I'm
considering picking up Full Thrust, and I thought I'd check and see what books
current players recommend a new player to buy. Since I'm the only person in my
area that is interested (that I know about) I'll have to teach myself the
rules, so any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

> Fent, Lee wrote:

> Hello all,

Given that this is the GZG list and that Full Thrust is GZG's flagship, how
could it possibly be bad form to pick it up...? <G> Welcome on board, BTW.

> and I thought I'd check and see what books current players >recommend

Full Thrust 2nd Edition (FT2) from 1992 is the basic game rules. Begin with
this, but ignore the ship design rules.

Fleet Book 1 (FB1) was published in 1998. Based on experience from the
intervening six years it revises several of the FT2 rules, introduces a few
new ones, and provides completely new ship design rules (which is why you
should ignore the ones in FT2) as well as a bunch of "official" ship designs
for four of the GZG starship model ranges. (As "official" as anything can be
in a game system where the fundamental rule is "if you don't like it, change
it", that is <g>)

There are two other supplements: More Thrust (MT) from 1993, which has a bunch
of new systems and optional rules but which is now out of print, and Fleet
Book 2 (FB2) from last spring which replaces much but not all of More Thrust.
You'll want FB2 eventually; the parts of MT which were not revised in FB2 will
hopefully appear in FB3 (whenever
that's due!) - or in the long-awaited 3rd Edition of Full Thrust
itself, but when that'll appear is anyone's guess :-/

Best wishes,

> On Thu, 04 January 2001, "Fent, Lee" wrote:

> I don't know if this is considered bad form or not, but I'm

Hi, Lee!

Actually, I think the list is fairly static (compared to some). We don't often
get a LOT of new players. I think most list members are people who
played the game before. That having been said, we're an opinionated --
but surprisingly friendly and mature -- bunch, so we always like to help
out new people when we can.

Full Thrust is going through a bit of a change. The rules are spread out into
several volumes.

First, you need the Full Thrust rulebook. No matter what, buy that.

Second, I would recommend buying Fleet Book Volume 1. Even if you have no
intention of using the "official" fleets, the new rules (vector movement, new
ship design rules, new weapon systems, etc., etc.) are worth it.

Third, if you like the feel of alien ships, pick up Fleet Book Volume 2. There
are some neat new systems that could be used in any ship you design on your
own. There is also a race, the Sa'vasku, that have ships that work differently
from all the others out there.

Fourth, there is the More Thrust supplement. Personally, depending on how long
it takes you to pick up the other three, you may find that the next version of
the game is out and won't need it. But it's got some good stuff in there. Most
of it, though, has been reproduced or redone in the fleet books.

So, my advice is pick up Full Thrust, and then pick up the first fleet book
shortly thereafter.

> At 2001.01.04 -0600 13:56, you wrote:

I agree with the previous statements. Get Full Thrust 2nd Edition and then
Fleet Book 1 (in that order).

I don't know where you live, but you may want to check out Indy's GZG Games
Player List at http://www.bcpl.net/~indy/full-thrust/location.html. I
always encourage people to sign up, as it lets other players find YOU!

And keep reading this mailing list (welcome, by the way), as several PBEM
(play by E-mail) games are announced each year.

Oh! And if you are near Lancaster, PA, there is an EXCELENT convention of Full
Thrust, Dirtside II, and Stargrunt II games, the Ground Zero Games
East Coast Convention http://www.warpfish.com/jhan/ft/gzgecc/ March 2-4,

2001. People of all experience levels welcome at most of the games.

And about teaching yourself the rules, don't worry. I taught myself the rules
and then tried to interest my friends. The rules are easily learned. Figuring
out strategy and the sublties of the game is harder without an opponent (PBEM
games are great for this).

---

Where do you live?
On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:56:27 -0600  "Fent, Lee" <lee.fent@esker.com>
writes:
> Hello all,

From: "Fent, Lee" <lee.fent@esker.com>

> Hello all,

> ----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----

Picking up Full Thrust is not considered bad form on this list :-)
Welcome to our corner of the universe

> > and I thought I'd check and see what books current players

I have been in a similar situation not that long ago.

> FB1 should be enough, but FT itself wouldn't hurt if you're teaching

I guess Alan is slightly confused here. You need the basic Full Thrust book.
Fleet Book 1 alone does not give a full game. I would recommend getting both
at the same time, then pick a limited set of basic rules that you feel
comfortable with and start playing.

What I think you should adopt: The ship design rules and weapon arc rules from
FB2

Which of the two movement type options, 'cinematic' as in FT or 'vector' as in
FB2 is entirely up to you. 'Cinematic' is more like spaceships move in the
films, basically like airplanes. 'Vector' is more 'realistic' in that a ship
can turn to face any desired direction even if travelling in another
direction.

Start with a few basic weapons, beams and torpedos, perhaps and a few small to
medium sized ships.

The ship designs in FB2 should give you ideas on what ships work reasonably
well.

To be added later: Fighters, sensor rules, other weapons, 'terrain'.

For the advanced gamer: campaigns etc.

Greetings Karl Heinz

> KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
I know in the UK GZG do some very good deals on 'rule books plus two beginner
fleets of ships' in a bundle. Don't know if the other countries sellers do the
same, but it would be worth checking.

> What I think you should adopt:

> Which of the two movement type options, 'cinematic' as in FT or
As I said, better to start with cinematic IMO until you get the hang of the
game mechanic then try out the vector. Unless you have some reason to do a lot
of vector mechanics in other parts of your life and are used to the concept.

                                TTFN
                                        Jon

-- Working in a Digital Industry with an Analogue Brain --

***
> FB1 should be enough, but FT itself wouldn't hurt if you're teaching

I guess Alan is slightly confused here. You need the basic Full Thrust book.
Fleet Book 1 alone does not give a full game.
***

Well, if you're VERY familiar with FTII, the rewrite of FB1 is so
comprehensive, you get the feeling it's complete. Allen's statement is
understandable. I don't agree with it, though. ;->=

The problem now is that, given we basically have a 2.5 version game, a new
player can be very daunted with a ruleset and fairly extensive addenda.
Certainly not the Star Fleet Battles situation, but worth considerating.

Before I bring up the necessity of the FT III several people have been
discussing, how goes BDS? ;->=

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad

For movement, I would recommend the opposite. I would suggest Vector movement.
While it seems more complex, I think that the end result is more intuitive
than with cinematic movement.

And if you tire of the Fleet Book designs, I have collected quite a few at the
Full Thrust Ship Registry (see URL below) that you are welcome to use (both
2nd Edition designs and Fleet Book style designs).

-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org
-----

> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> > Which of the two movement type options, 'cinematic' as in FT or

> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:

I've had the opposite experience when teaching FT to beginners. Most of them
picked up the Cinematic movement more readily than they did the vector
movement. Cinematic movement was likened to "boats in water" by one of them.
But, as always, everyone's
mileage will very.  :-)

Alan Brain wrote in reply to Lee Fent:

> FB1 should be enough, but FT itself wouldn't hurt if you're teaching

FB1 is *almost* enough, but some details are missing. The two most important
omissions are:
- the Cinematic (basic) movement system (FB1 describes the optional
Vector movement system though)
- the explanation of how Fire Control Systems work and what they're
used for.

There are also a bunch of less-used rules which are only found in FT2:
- Several of the fighter rules, including launch restrictions and the
range and damage of *standard* fighter weapons (the advanced types are in both
MT and FB2)
- full description of Sub-Munition Packs (FB1 gives their range and
damage, but not their other characteristics)
- FTL
- ...and a bunch of other rules like ramming, asteroid fields etc.

...and some of the concepts and rules which *are* reiterated in FB1 are done
very summarily, because they assume that the reader already knows FT2 where
they were described in greater detail.

All in all, I wouldn't begin directly with FB1 - not without an
experienced player to fill in the gaps during the first few games, anyway.

> KH Ranitzsch wrote:

> The ship design rules and weapon arc rules from FB2
...
> The ship designs in FB2 should give you ideas on what ships work

In all these cases, he means "FB1" rather than "FB2". Yes, FB2 has a couple of
small modifications to both the ship design rules and the
Vector movement rules, but the bulk of these rules are in FB1 - and the
ship designs in FB*2* aren't exactly standard ones, either :-/

Good hunting,

> -----Original Message-----

> On Fri, 05 January 2001, devans@uneb.edu wrote:

> Well, if you're VERY familiar with FTII, the rewrite of FB1 is so

Just to be clear, it was Alan B. that suggested it. And not me. There is no
"Allen" on the list. *grin*

> Before I bring up the necessity of the FT III several people have been

Still in the "discussing some stuff" stage. Jon has a bunch of irons in the
fire right now, none of which we can really talk much about. I don't think I'm
letting anything out by saying BDS will probably be a joint
DS2/SG2 book. Whether or not it's the NEXT book is a good question.

(The astute will discern that I managed to answer your question while saying
very little. *S*)

> On Fri, 05 January 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:

> For movement, I would recommend the opposite. I would

I agree with Brian. It is a lot more intuitive. The only possible problem is
that new players tend to fly off the table more often than experienced
players. If you don't think of the "floating table" concept (which isn't in
the book), you can get frustrated fairly easy.

That having been said, in most of the games I've played players have actually
been VERY concerned about going too fast and tended to play more
conservatively.

Another vote in favour of the FB1 book is that a player gets a whole lot of
predesigned ships with it. Even if not playing with the GZG universe, that
does help a lot.

***
> For movement, I would recommend the opposite. I would

I agree with Brian. It is a lot more intuitive.
***

As I agree with the former speaker; course, I tend to shorter and slower
movement games than most, and feel cinematic is VERY realistic within these
limitations.

***
If you don't think of the "floating table" concept (which isn't in the book),
***

I think it IS mentioned in FTII or MT, but I suppose you are just talking
about FB1.

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad

> On Fri, 05 January 2001, devans@uneb.edu wrote:

> I think it IS mentioned in FTII or MT, but I suppose you are just

Is the floating table concept in FTII? I'll have to look.

And NO, it was "Alan" not "Allan" that suggested going just for FB1. I KNOW
you can't play Full Thrust without the main rulebook! *S*

> -----Original Message-----

On a less odd foot, thanks to everyone who replied, I think I'll just jump in
and FT2, FB1 & 2 and solve all the questions. I was really trying to see if
any of the books were considered to be more or less useless, or if all books
had a high ratio of useful rules.

Thanks,

Rats, I am in Saint Louis, MO.

On Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:39:29 -0600  "Fent, Lee" <lee.fent@esker.com>
writes:
> -----Original Message-----

> Allan Goodall wrote:

> I agree with Brian. It is a lot more intuitive. The only possible
concept >(which isn't in the book), you can get frustrated fairly easy.

Um. Allan, you may want to take a closer look at FT2 p.28: "The 'Moving
Table' and Disengaging From Battle" :-/

Regards,

On Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:03:04 +0100, "Oerjan Ohlson"
<oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote: