For my fellow Luddites who fear the security problems that have arisen with
Java/Javascript, this site's noble effort is unavailable unless you have
Java/Javascript enabled.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
From - Fri Dec 22 21:59:30 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26257;
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:22:47 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBG2MII35256;
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:22:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 15 Dec
2000 18:22:16 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBG2MF035234
for gzg-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:22:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:XQSGeaj/cpz9M245/oekYhrRICcHr77k@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBG2MDP35229
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:22:13
-0800 (PST)
Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBG2MDf85696
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:22:13 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from ShldWulf@aol.com)
Received: from ShldWulf@aol.com
by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id d.f9.5ab95f8 (3943)
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:22:05 -0500
(EST)
From: ShldWulf@aol.com
Message-ID: <f9.5ab95f8.276c2bcd@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:22:05 EST
Subject: Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 124
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de000008cb
In a message dated 12/11/2000 10:03:41 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> JDoch226@aol.com writes:
<< I'd like to hear more about this game. What scale was it, what was map
like, how did rules work? Jed Docherty >>
Give me a bit. I have to unearth it again:o)
Randy
From - Fri Dec 22 21:59:31 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28294;
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:31:49 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBG2V8Z35428;
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:31:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 15 Dec
2000 18:31:07 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBG2V6v35407
for gzg-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:31:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:0DHDN77JWv/dtwlm7yttxe5wzVkmlYFH@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBG2V4P35401
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:31:04
-0800 (PST)
Received: from unebmail.uneb.edu ([199.240.194.41])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBG2V3f86979
for <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:31:04 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from devans@uneb.edu)
Subject: [OT] Cerebus Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 March 21, 2000
Message-ID: <OF9AD382E2.09CD23FB-ON862569B7.000D9962@uneb.edu>
From: devans@uneb.edu
Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:33:32 -0600
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on UNEBMAIL/Servers/UNEBR(Release 5.0.5
|September 22, 2000) at
12/15/2000 08:33:34 PM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de000008cc
I looked it over at home. It was a 'micro' that Task Force Games put out.
Standard stuff: units had attack, defence, movement, but the map was the
planet laid out similarly to later Traveller and Renegade Legion, with the
surface pealed in triangles (I can't think of the projection's name) overlaid
with hex grid.
I'll leave it to Shldwulf to come up with how the rules worked. I didn't dig
that deeply. I assumed that the original post merely meant something like
Invasion: Earth or Prefect could be used, as well.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
From - Fri Dec 22 21:59:32 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26941;
Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:16:40 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBG7DCm39586;
Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:13:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 15 Dec
2000 23:13:10 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBG7D9k39565
for gzg-l-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:13:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:UbjroxgW0b2vGX7x2DOLyjFvVwO2napV@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBG7D7P39559
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:13:07
-0800 (PST)
Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBG7D6f14310
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 23:13:07 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from ShldWulf@aol.com)
Received: from ShldWulf@aol.com
by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id d.27.ed13423 (4204)
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:12:58 -0500
(EST)
From: ShldWulf@aol.com
Message-ID: <27.ed13423.276c6ffa@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:12:58 EST
Subject: Re: [OT] Cerebus Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 124
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de000008ce
Jed Docherty asked for a little more info on "Cerberus" by Task Force Games.
(Micro-Game #3 according to the cover :o)
If this is too much OT, let me know I'll take it off the list.
> What scale was it?
Listed as one hex = 1000 Kilometers, one turn = One Cerebus "day" (21.45
hours), and each "battalion" (counter) = @ 1,000 men and 100 vehicles.
> What was map like?
As Mr.Evans pointed out, it's a Flattened D20 world map, (metaclure or some
such? projection) with a hexagon overlay.
> How did rules work?
And there is the killer. I need to re-read them, but a gist of it is.
Humans
discovered a "Warp-Point" (shades of Starfire :o) which lead to Proxima
Centauri. We met aliens who already owned it. They said, "Oh neat. Now go home
and don't bother us." We bothered them:o)
The game assumes a "rapid" campaign. 2 weeks. You don't bother holding the
planet, your goals are "resource hexes." He who owns the all the resource
hexes on the planet is the "winner." There is a track on the map and a method
for determining "Space Superiority" during each turn. (Which effects ground
combat that turn naturally. I dont recall if it interfires with movement
right now.)
You establish bases and from there patrol entire contenents with mobile, (the
game uses "magnetic ground effect" vehicles, and in the advanced game
sub-orbital movment of some troops to get around) forces. The combat is
based on "battalion v battalion" battles.
There are also Special Forces units in the game. I was thinking THEY and
their attacks could be the basis for several SG2 scenerios during the game.
If you'd like I can go into more detail when I've had a chance to
re-read the
rules better.
Randy
From - Fri Dec 22 21:59:32 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA07039;
Sat, 16 Dec 2000 02:32:32 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBG8VVh40870;
Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 16 Dec
2000 00:31:29 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBG8VSO40849
for gzg-l-outgoing; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:0rk9NXWpR8M1XSk3AD58w/K/4XdSqjTc@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBG8VQP40844
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:26
-0800 (PST)
Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net
[207.217.121.49])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBG8VPf73587
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:25 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from nezach@earthlink.net)
Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust161.tnt1.monterey.ca.da.uu.net
[63.59.135.161])
by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id
AAA28918
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:31:24 -0800
(PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001216003526.007e8a20@earthlink.net>
X-Sender: nezach@earthlink.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:35:26 -0800
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Ndege Diamond <nezach@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Cerebus Re: No campaign system acceptable for SG2?
In-Reply-To: <27.ed13423.276c6ffa@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de000008cf
> As Mr. Evans pointed out, it's a Flattened D20 world map, (metaclure or
Mercator projection maps are the deals that have the meridians unequally
spaced with their distances increasing more as you get away from equator. Kind
of like what you would get if you put the surface of the earth on the sides of
a cylinder. It sounds like you are talking about an icosahedral projection
map.
Is there any online information about Cerberus?
> Peter Mancini wrote:
> The rules are proposals and have not yet been tested. I am working
> On the meson beam - with most ships only having 3-5 crew, this >weapon
Hm? Not sure if you mean 3-5 crew members or 3-5 crew stars on SSD
here.
If you mean 3-5 crew stars (TMF 41-100 in FBx), that means that you
need to roll on average 18-30 meson beam dice in order to knock out the
entire crew. With a maximum size of 4 and no more than 1 per ship, it'll take
quite a while (or a large number of large ships at short range) to fire that
many Meson or Neutron Beam dice at a single target.
If you mean 3-5 crew *members*, well... there are several shots from
interiors of Minbari, Centauri and EA cruisers suggesting that their
crews number in dozens or even hundreds (IIRC a Hyperion-class cruiser
has a crew of around 250). The only shots I can remember from Narn ships show
a bridge crew of 3, but that's just the *bridge* crew. Since the G'Quans are
capable of taking out the Centauri heavy cruisers, I
find it somewhat hard to believe that the 3-person bridge crew is all
the crew there is on the ship :-/
> If we take B5 the series at face value we have several problems with
> designation. Cleary JMS is an average joe in comparison to his
I can name another well-known SF series (movies though, not TV) where
the biggest capital ships are called "destroyers"... and at least one SF
author who uses the terms "battleship" and "cruiser" to mean
"short-ranged ship with endurance for a single battle only" and "ship
with endurance for long-distance patrol cruises" respectively (which
IIRC is closer to the original naval meanings of the words than today's
usage is) :-/
> Another is tactics - in 50% of the battles involving Omegas, there
If it's Greek it is "trieres", if Latin "trireme"... the eyes seem quite
appropriate though, given that most or all Omegas have names from
Greek ancient history and myths :-/
> I am sure he was just trying to be dramatic. The same goes for the
If you give the Minbari heavy screens to give them their normal
invulnerability against human weapons - they'll need at least level-2
screens to come within shouting distance of the "historical" effect,
and level-3 would be preferrable - they will *also* be virtually immune
to the Shadow weapon. Unless you vary the number of screens they have
depending on who they fight at the moment, of course.
The Minbari in the show - Delenn in particular - seem to be quite
nervous about fighting the Shadows... but why would they be nervous, if the
Shadows couldn't harm Minbari ships?
> Now then, I suspect I'll get over-ruled and much more devestating
Pretty much, yes. Just like real-world heavily armoured battleships are
all-powerful against small ships without torpedoes (and pretty close to
invulnerable to small surface ships *with* torpedoes, too...) but neutralized
by subs or aircraft <g>
> On armor blocks, having played naval games from all periods of
The same problem as the Shadow beam weapon, but we've swapped roles <g>
The problem is that real armour very rarely ablates at all :-(
> Also, please don't forget that there are NUMEROUS weapons that >bypass
> From your page, there are Meson beams, Neutron beams, and the
In the standard game the EMP MT missile and the Needle Beam clearly
ignore armour. K-guns, P-torps and other missiles might - but the way
you phrased the armour block rule - "They are meant to stop beam
weapons, missiles, kinetic weapons and the like" - strongly suggests
that you intend the armour blocks to give full protection against all
the normal FB armour-piercers.
And, as the rules were written last I read them, you hadn't yet decided
how often the armour would apply each turn :-/
> The Minbari are interesting. [snip] This lead me to believe that the
According to what's said in the show (and AFAIK), they use both. What's
said doesn't always agree with what's seen, of course - but which of
the visuals and the dialogue is more likely to be dramatic effect? <g>
> Using the concept of symetry I have started to design their weapons
See the comments about the Shadows vs Minbari above. In the show it seems that
the Minbari EW capabilities aren't as effective against all
enemies - so if you use screens to represent this effect, they'll
probably need level-2 or -3 screens against humans, but against Shadows
(who, according to Delenn, "never miss") their big war cruisers shouldn't have
any screens at all. Against Centauri, or any of the other races with better
tech than the humans but (far) worse than the Shadows... who knows?
> The Narn and Earth Force will be designed around armor and the
More likely because it took them a century or two to figure out how to ride a
horse and fight at the same time, instead of having every other
rider refrain from fighting in order to hold the other man's horse :-/
Regards,
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:00 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24896;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:07:40 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBJL77n93432;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:07:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 19 Dec
2000 13:07:05 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBJL74R93410
for gzg-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:07:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:qgIagUZkqmonFJRRzrStZfk2FZdQCV9I@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBJL72P93405
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:07:02
-0800 (PST)
Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBJL72f94694
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:07:02 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from s_schoon@pacbell.net)
Received: from [63.201.228.141] by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail
Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id
<0G5U00F3A1RFX7@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for
gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:47:40 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:50:12 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons Concept Question
In-reply-to: <02b001c069e0$5fdbb940$ca2cd03f@pconn>
X-Sender: s_schoon@postoffice.pacbell.net
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Message-id: <p0432040fb66579ebe7bf@[63.201.228.141]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: <p04320403b66480889786@[63.203.204.49]>
<02b001c069e0$5fdbb940$ca2cd03f@pconn>
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000092c
> I was chatting with a good friend yesterday and he mentioned
Well, these COULD be done entirely with existing systems.
Create you ship with a tug FTL and then create some drive-less
weapons pods. This is not a perfect match, owing to the FTL-tow
fudge, but it should get into the ballpark.
Schoon
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:01 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01183;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:48:38 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBJLmoj94033;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:48:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 19 Dec
2000 13:48:49 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBJLmm894012
for gzg-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:48:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:ZJn3/vyQwjyaCC4wj0VNAq/kcQRnmL1d@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBJLmlP94006
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:48:47
-0800 (PST)
Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (mail1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBJLmjf02414
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:48:45 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk)
Received: from modem-609.great-egret.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.190.97]
helo=auser) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0)
id 148Ucj-00015B-00
for gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:48:42 +0000
Message-ID: <000b01c06a05$a61441a0$61be893e@auser>
From: "bif smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk>
To: "full thrust" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: More weapon concept questions
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:49:20 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000092f
Another question/idea that has been rolling around in my grey matter,
arising from the starfire novels (is that a moan of "not again" I hear?), is
that of anti-fighter missiles. My idea is you exchange explosive power
for more sensitive seeker heads (to lock onto the smaller targets that are
fighters) and range for more maneuverablity (to actually hit the very agile
and evasive targets that are fighters). Due to the severly lacking in
explosive power (incapable of damaging a starship) and range (haven`t thought
about this, guess at 8 MU, at any fighter squad, doesn`t have to be atacking
anything), I would say you could replace 1 SML round with 2 AFHAWK missiles
(Anti Fighter Homing All the Way Killer). I`m also thinking of allowing these
missiles to be fired in the missiles phase (and target fighters before they
can avoid them? maybe?), or fired at the same time as PDS from any unfired
launcher(s). The cost I would leave as normal, due to
the need for a launcher, firecon, limited arcs, and limited fire/ammo
dependent. For the number of fighters destroyed by this, you have to compair
this to PDS. For a launcher, 2 rounds of ammo & F.Con, you need 6 mass and a
cost of 19 pts. 6 PDS (same mass) would cost 18 pts, with no ammo worries. For
this reason, I would say that each AFHAWK salvo rolls 3D6, and use the normal
PDS results for the number of fighters destroyed, with
armoured/heavy
fighters gaining no bonuses. This makes the AFHAWK missiles very powerfull,
but only able to be used for a limited number of times due to ammo. Any
ideas/comments on this?
Also, in the game I played using missile pods, I had a universe that had FTL
drive (where a ship could travel, and have limited combat, in hyperspace),
and also warppoints/wormholes/jumpoints etc (instantaineous travel
between two points) just like the HH universe. The speed of a ship in
hyperspace was the number of lightyears traveled per day equalled it`s MD
thrust (making faster ships more useful because of the faster responce time to
trouble between diferent starsystems). The warppoints made point blank defence
and abushes practical, and made fortresses and minefeilds useful. In this
universe, any two ship that tried to jump at the same time rolled a D6, and
on a 6 for vessels upto 100 mass (5 for 100 to 199, 4 for 200+ (50% min
chance of suscess)), would interpenitrate on exit, destroying each other. This
led me to design a WARPHAWK unmaned missile pod. These were simular to the
towed missile pods, but mounted a F.Con to represent the
autonimous/remote comtrol fireprograms, and a engine for limited
independent maneuvering (at a thrust of 4). These would have 7 mass, a cost of
21, and can carry 2 MT (or 1 st.SMR). Any weapon or PDS could kill one of
these on a sucessfull hit roll, due to having a hull of 0.5. The pods when
using independent targeting would require writing of orders for their targets
(attack any ship of 100 to 200 mass, or attack ant ship within 12 MU. or
attack any fortresses etc,etc), and under remote control could be controlled
and fired by any ship at the ratio of 4 pods per firecon. Due to being non
FTL, they required freighter transport between systems, making them a VERY
useful way of increasing your firepower, but very expensive if you include the
freighter cost (like in a strategic game over many starsystems). The warphawk
pods I used in only one game, but they made the game interesting with 3 people
(2 opposing players in different rooms who didn`t know how each had deployed
on either side of the warppoint, and the 3rd player to roll for
interpenitration), and each person wondering if the number of pods destroyed
before launch would allow the targeted side to survive, or if the pods were
programed corectly to targets that were actually there. When the first ship
warps through, the two fleets (and players) were moved onto the same table,
and fought it out. Became very suprising at times to different players.
BIF "yorkshire born,yorkshire bred, strong in arms, thick in head"
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> >If we take B5 the series at face value we have several problems with
And as I see it, names used to describe ships don't necessarily have to follow
*20th century* conventions, either. Things can change over time.
> >I am sure he was just trying to be dramatic. The same goes for the
Actually, if you re-view some of the major battles of the multiple races
against the Shadows, you see Minbari warships sliced to pieces by Shadow
vessels, just as easily as everyone else. The Minbari ships are no more immune
to Shadow weaponry than any of the other races (save the Vorlons and other 1st
Ones, but they're in a league all their own!).
> >Now then, I suspect I'll get over-ruled and much more devestating
I'd personally (if I had more time to revamp my B5 rules) take the Sa'Vasku
rules and tweak them a little to represent the Shadows. After
all, in a roundabout way I suspect that's what Jon was trying to not-
emmulate. ;-)
> >The Minbari are interesting. [snip] This lead me to believe that the
What's
> said doesn't always agree with what's seen, of course - but which of
At least there's an attempt. JMS is an SF fan, not a wargamer dude. You gotta
cut him a little slack and work with what's available. Ultimately you have to
decide what WORKS, and what doesn't, for the GAME. And as long as all players
of that set of rules agree, no problemmo.
> See the comments about the Shadows vs Minbari above. In the show it
Legend and rumor handed down over time. The characters aren't all omniescent.
They only tell you what *they* know. That's what she thinks or believes. It
doesn't necessarily make it correct. We've seen Shadows miss in other battles
(and I'm *not* referring to the early clashes between The White Star and
single Shadow ships, either). That the Shadows have an incredibly accurate
targetting system, I'll buy it. But that they "never miss", I won't accept.
Well, just had to jump in here for a moment. I've managed to resist putting
in the "FT is *not* wet-navy-in-space even though it may almost look
like it"
bit. ;-) Back to lurking...
Mk
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:02 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16677;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:01:13 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBJMxcL94681;
Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:59:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Tue, 19 Dec
2000 14:59:35 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBJMxYR94660
for gzg-l-outgoing; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:59:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:TFoUQuPHyBPiMXoeq928WGxSm4WhyZaO@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBJMxWP94655
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:59:32
-0800 (PST)
Received: from sirius.sg.u1728.unilever.com (mailout09.unilever.com
[203.127.53.68])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBJMxVf12430
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:59:31 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from Flynn.Richardson@unilever.com)
Received: from wel-001.au.u1525.unilever.com by
sirius.sg.u1728.unilever.com with ESMTP for gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:59:19 +0800
Received: from PET-WNZ02764 by wel-001.au.u1525.unilever.com with ESMTP
for gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:00:02 +1300
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:59:12 +1300 (New Zealand Daylight Time)
From: "Flynn Richardson" <Flynn.Richardson@unilever.com>
Subject: Noble Armada
To: "GZG list" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <ISSMTP.2000_38_.20001220115912.200B@unilever.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Language: en-NZL
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de00000932
Hi all, Has anyone on the list had any experience with the Noble Armada game
set in the Fading Suns universe? i.e. are the minis any good for FT? are the
boarding actions interesting? can they be mapped to FT?
I have looked at the web page but that did not give a view of the minis
included in the base box just the expansion one (which looked ok and around LC
to BB scale)
Any help would be appreciated.
> From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
If they had figured this out prior to 900BC, why didn't they stop
having one mounted horse-holder for each mounted fighter until around
750BC...?
A question for the AGES!!! I spent months researching this very same thing.
The reasons why that I came up with were:
1. Competitors took a long time to develop sufficient cavalry arms 2. Nobels
were hard press to get rid of high prestige chariots 3. Nobels were very happy
plinking arrows at the unwashed or engaging enemy
nobels in one-on-one battles. Engaging in shock combat with the
wanwashed was just not heard of. If the unwashed were to attempt to charge
chariots
it would be considered SOCIAL CLIMBING. :-)
4. Why does the U.S. Army still have any aviation assets? They are
conservative military organizations and they hate to give up things they had
before. 5. The United Chariot Makers Union had a powerful lobby. 6. Florida
voters were distracted by the shiny chariots and voted too keep them in
production long after they served their term of service.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:15 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29478;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:12:07 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBKKDKC14500;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 20 Dec
2000 12:13:17 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKKDGh14477
for gzg-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:uDRwTcqnr13fn9e2tt1YooE0o2lFoOzd@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBKKDEP14472
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:14
-0800 (PST)
Received: from megrez.acdadmin.net ([207.179.70.131])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBKKDDf62542
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:13:14 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from hosford.donald@acd.net)
Received: from ACD.net ([207.179.66.221]) by megrez.acdadmin.net with
Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600);
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:12:02 -0500
Message-ID: <3A4112A8.95B51F2C@ACD.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:12:24 -0500
From: Donald Hosford <Hosford.Donald@acd.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions
References: <F18j47y98KRPthk5A3L000048b7@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 20:12:02.0559 (UTC)
FILETIME=[1DAEA0F0:01C06AC1]
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000095b
Check the game out...he's not kidding! (oy!)
Donald Hosford
> Peter Mancini wrote:
> >- 'Red Chicken Rising' tactical space rules in the Generic Legions
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31449;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:20:38 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBKKGWM14574;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 20 Dec
2000 12:16:31 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKKGUd14553
for gzg-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:LAHHTDBlJh7lJtscJ+VpSUrhmOH8hEwl@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBKKGTP14548
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:29
-0800 (PST)
Received: from exsrv.bitheads.com (mail.bitheads.com [64.26.142.194])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBKKGSf63134
for <GZG-L@csua.berkeley.edu>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:28 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from tomb@bitheads.com)
Received: by host-253.bitheads.com with Internet Mail Service
(5.5.2448.0)
id <YM7VRHXY>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:16:22 -0500
Message-ID:
<417DEC289A05D4118408000102362E0A34D23E@host-253.bitheads.com>
From: "Barclay, Tom" <tomb@bitheads.com>
To: "Gzg Digest (E-mail)" <GZG-L@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Metalstorm system
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:16:20 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000095c
I was reading some more about the Metalstorm system discussed recently (the
system for firing bullets electrically from preloaded barrells gauranteeing
hideous rates of fire).
In the article, they had a system with 36? barrells loaded with 9mm
ammunition. The system looked to be about 2m long, by about about 1.25m high
by about 0.75m wide, but I'm sort of guestimating scale. It fired (no word of
a lie) at an effective ROF of 1.62M rpm. I saw the snaps of it firing
- a
geyser of flame....
They were planning units like this for CIWS for ships and for..... MINES!
They said they could do away with some of the conventional mines (pain to
lay, pain to recover/demine) and replace it with fields featuring a few
of these and sensors to drive them. They predicted the psychological effects
on enemy infantry formations who contemplated advancing against them as
....severe.
I've seen a CF film called "Small Arms in the Anti-aircraft Role". In it
was a segment on the PIVAD air defense system (Vulcan on an M113). They showed
it depressed to engage infantry - they cut trucks and plywood infantry
cutouts in half so fast you'd never even know what hit you. And that has a RoF
of at max a few thousand RPM. I concluded upon seeing that demonstration
years ago that _I_ would never want to engage an ADA unit without using
a GMS from 2000m. Now I've seen this beast, I can just imagine the "severe"
morale effects on an enemy unit having to move into a "minefield" of these
systems.
DARPA (I think) granted them $10M US to build a prototype combat rifle with a
90,000 rpm cyclic rate. The unit they've already displayed meets the RoF
requirement, though they'll still have work to do to get the ballistics right
(each round in a barrell has to have a slighltly differing flightpath and this
is still part of the experimental side of the weapons system). But the
interesting thing was with the high cyclic, three round bursts could be
initiated, all rounds would hit the target before recoil adjusted the MPI.
This translates to very nasty amounts of *effective* FP. With the
rifle-ish
arm they displayed, I think they said they could put 100 round burst out,
and the first-to-last round impact delay would be 0.04 seconds. Ouch.
The other interesting thing was that they were developing a 4 barrelled pistol
for police which would have 2 barrells loaded with 15 (?? seemed
non-symetric?) rounds of 9mm and 2 barrels loaded with 6 beanbags. This
would give the officer lethal and non-lethal force options without
changing weapons in a very rapid span. I'm now going to include such hybrid
weapons
in an update of my non-lethal weapon rules for SG2.
They claimed to have applications for the technology in other areas (including
??? firefighting????). They also talked about biometric access
methods - these guns are electrically initiated. They could thus make a
very safe handgun (your kid can't shoot himself with Daddy's gun AND the crim
couldn't plug the copper with his service pistol).
Something tells me if these are invented, the Canadian Army will order the
version calibrated to single shots or three round bursts, and the US forces
will order the full auto version.... since they have the logistics
train....;)
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> The real question is, at what point do I need to worry about this?
Remember that the early battles were battles of the Shadow's choosing where
they not only had superior technology they had optimal positions and they
outnumbered their foes.
--
Jeff Miller
Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon V
Burbank Airport Hilton -- June 8-10, 2001
http://www.agamemcon.org
Contact Info:
92 Corporate Park Ste C-330
Irvine, CA 92606
Phone: (949)643-8352
Fax: (949)863-9021
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:20 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29914;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:52:55 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBKMrps16658;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:53:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 20 Dec
2000 14:53:50 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKMrn116637
for gzg-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:53:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:D5o2MR53/Lxp0wjQ+6OqsnrdlU8Id9xI@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBKMrmP16632
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:53:48
-0800 (PST)
Received: from web4602.mail.yahoo.com (web4602.mail.yahoo.com
[216.115.105.157])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with SMTP id
eBKMrlf91428
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:53:47 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from john_t_leary@yahoo.com)
Message-ID: <20001220225347.12208.qmail@web4602.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [38.29.70.99] by web4602.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000
14:53:47 PST
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:53:47 -0800 (PST)
From: John Leary <john_t_leary@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RE-Ship types names
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000096a
> --- bif smith <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
...An example of
> what could happen is
'Tank' actually comes from the 'cover story' the Brits used to develop the
tanks. In the cover story the 'tanks' were to be used to transport fresh water
to the front lines.
Bye for now, John L.
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:19 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24932;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:29:30 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBKMS6q16271;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:28:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 20 Dec
2000 14:28:05 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKMS4D16250
for gzg-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:28:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:fLpurn6amvjbAn6qLQ/kfyd1chRADvqh@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBKMS2P16245
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:28:02
-0800 (PST)
Received: from web1405.mail.yahoo.com (web1405.mail.yahoo.com
[128.11.23.169])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with SMTP id
eBKMS2f86405
for <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:28:02 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from imperialdispatches@yahoo.com)
Received: (qmail 22085 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2000 22:56:28 -0000
Message-ID: <20001220225628.22084.qmail@web1405.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [216.88.141.240] by web1405.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000
14:56:28 PST
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:56:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Llaneza <imperialdispatches@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Riflepersons?!?
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de00000967
Soldiers and Troopers are both acceptable, gender-neutral terms.
> --- Rick Rutherford <Rick@esr.com> wrote:
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:20 2000
Return-Path: <owner-gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Received: from scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (scotch.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.51])
by lilac.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00014;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:08:21 -0600
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id
eBKN4Ga16775;
Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:04:16 -0800 (PST)
Received: by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (bulk_mailer v1.12); Wed, 20 Dec
2000 15:04:16 -0800
Received: (from majordom@localhost)
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKN4EE16754
for gzg-l-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:04:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from soda.csua.berkeley.edu
(IDENT:FDC6vkBEJBucCWcW+MyiG7kCGoaAKEFo@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[128.32.43.52])
by scotch.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id
eBKN4DP16749
for <gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:04:13
-0800 (PST)
Received: from unebmail.uneb.edu ([199.240.194.41])
by soda.csua.berkeley.edu (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id
eBKN49f93104
for <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:04:13 -0800
(PST)
(envelope-from devans@uneb.edu)
Subject: Re: RE-Ship types names
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 March 21, 2000
Message-ID: <OFD840B741.90BB9ED1-ON862569BB.007EA4C0@uneb.edu>
From: devans@uneb.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:06:37 -0600
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on UNEBMAIL/Servers/UNEBR(Release 5.0.5
|September 22, 2000) at
12/20/2000 05:06:45 PM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Delivered-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Status:
X-Mozilla-Status: 0000
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
X-UIDL: 39d245de0000096b
I'd heard this, but also that it was actually called WC after Winston
Churchill, with WC commonly used to refer to water closet, or 'necessaries' as
it is more delicately known. Tank from toilet; the other cover story covered
more than just keeping the enemy unawares, according to the version
I came across. ;->=
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
John Leary
<john_t_leary@yahoo.com> To:
gzg-l@CSUA.Berkele
y.EDU Sent by: cc:
owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Be Subject: Re:
RE-Ship t
ypes names rkeley.EDU
12/20/2000 04:53 PM
Please respond to gzg-l
> --- bif smith <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
...An example of
> what could happen is
'Tank' actually comes from the 'cover story' the Brits used to develop the
tanks. In the cover story the 'tanks' were to be used to transport fresh water
to the front lines.
Bye for now, John L.