NAC - American style [LONG]

I have two problems with the NAC as written up by Jon Tuffley - The
rather confusing nomenclature of the ships as presented in FB1, and the
future history which has the collapse of the US and the re-emergance of
the British Empire. I don't disparage the dream of a return to the days of
colonial glory, and the idea of the US falling into a chaotic distopia is, to
say the least, pragmatically amusing to some Brits, but it does come to seem a
little insulting to American players, as well as somewhat less than
believable, considering that our economy continues to
grow, thanks to immigration - legal & otherwise - from South & Central
America.  Besides, that sci-fi convention has been done to death since
the late 70's. It has also inspired many trivial debates on the List
concerning American title peerage and whether or not the British military
could put down an insurgency in America, let alone a potental insurgency in
every country in the Western Hemisphere south of the 49th parallel.

So for the American players of FT, and any Brits interested, allow me to
postulate an alternate future history of the NAC for Y.O.U. [Your Own
Universe] as a date addendum to the background history on pages 42-43 of
the rule book 2nd edition...

THE NEW ATLANTIC CONFEDERATION

"It is upon the Deep Space Fleet, under the divine providence of God, that the
Health, Wealth, and Safety of the Confederation do chiefly depend."

2014 - Britain withdraws from the EC following the attempted Spanish
invasion of Gibraltar, which was thwarted with the aid of a US Marine
Expeditionary Force and naval air power fron the US Navy's 5th Fleet.

2046 - A show of force by the US Navy's Pacific Fleet averts a planned
invasion of South Korea by North Korea & China.

2049 - Former Florida governer Richardo Marti and California senator
Guillermo Luis Guzman take the oath of office and become the first ethnically
Hispanic President & Vice President of the United States, signaling the
beginning of a historic new closeness with Latin America.

2050 - Ending a debate that has gone on for nearly a century, Spanish
becomes offically recognized as the SECOND language of the United
States, further strengthing trade relations with the newly-formed LLAR.

2051 - An attemped annexation of the Indian sub-continent by the EU is
repelled with the assistance of American air power based from Dieago Garcia.

2057 - With the rest of the world organizing into federated superstates,
the United States, Canada, Britain, and Scotland unite as a economic and
military alliance, forming the Atlantic Confederation, with General Parham of
the United States as chief of ground forces, and Admiral Lord Dewsbury of
Great Britain as head of naval forces.

2072 - After 22 years of fence-sitting, the nation of Mexico and the
republics of Central America request membership in the AC rather than in the
LLAR, further strengthening their ties with "El Norte".

2098 - The LLAR, economically overextended by the establishment of their
off-world colonies, their economies hamstrung by a rash of political &
financial scandals, as well as the final exhaustion of the Venezuelan oil
reserves, requests membership in the AC as a means of bolstering their
flagging finances. The decision to join is unpopular with the
off-world colonies, which demand - and are granted - independence in the
11th hour before membership is finalized. The LLAR now exists as a nation
without territories on Earth.

2135 - The seat of the Atlantic Confederation government is moved to
Albion.

2136 - The Atlantic Confederation renames itself the New Atlantic
Confederation and revises its Constitution to include all related colonies as
independent members.

2159 - With the far-flung NAC empire dangerously overextended following
the First & Second Solar Wars, the NAC accept the request for independence by
the colonies of Austin and New Pasadena, as a means of
delegating authority and self-defense responsibilities, freeing the Deep
Space Fleet to tighten its defenses elsewhere.

As a result of this ammended history, Gibraltar remains a Brittish & later NAC
territory, South Korea eventually joins the OU as a
provisional member, Guam remains a US/NAC territory [with close
relations but not membership with the OU], and India remains independent as
per List posting...
http://lists.firedrake.org/gzg/200401/msg00114.html ...but with closer
ties to the NAC than ESU, so rather than a "Komarov" and a "Konstantin", India
buys an "Eastwood"...
http://www.star-ranger.com/Stuff/images/NAC/NACeastwood.gif
...and a "Saratoga"...
http://www.star-ranger.com/Stuff/images/NAC/NACsaratoga.gif

As for the ship nomenclature in FB1, the names consigned to classes were meant
as examples by Jon Tuffley, since the conventions of nomenclature seem to
overlap between classes. There are two classes beginning with "M", two classes
beginning with "V", two classes with Revolutionary War names, THREE classes
with adjectives, ect. Also "Furious" doesn't seem the most appropriate name
for a class whose role is chiefly DEFENSIVE.

In the "Americanized" version of the NAC, I use a defined nomenclature...

Carriers - "Ships of Renown"
Dreadnoughts - member nations of the Confed
Battleships - American states, Canadian provinces, territories, and
islands
Battlecruisers - capitals
Cruisers - cities
Destroyers & Frigates - military heroes
Corvettes - American tribal
Scoutships - enumerated

NOTE: In some classes, there are more ships than there are names to go
around.  For these "Surplus" ships, they are identified by a 4-digit
number, prefixed with the letters "ENCC" for "Emergency Naval Constrution
Contract". For surplus ships constructed prior to the
Sumani IV incident, they are prefixed "WNCC" for "War-time Naval
Construction Contract". To get the contract number, use the last 2 numbers of
the year that class first entered service, followed by the number of ship in
that class.

EXAMPLE: The unnamed,16th superdreadnought, whose class first entered service
in 2170, is named "WNCC 7016"

If more than one class was first constructed that year, the number is suffixed
with the class acronym.

EXAMPLE: The unnamed, 15th battledreadnought, whose class, along with the CM &
DDG, first entered service 2178, is named "ENCC 7815 BDN"

Also, since the US is, by nature, fostering the other nations of the
Confederation, the US has elected to consort American names to escort
and needle-beam versions of classes that take up a supporting combat
role, while deferring "the honour of combat victories" to ships representing
the other client states.

(This is an off-handedly clever deferment, owing to a well-known saying
in naval strategy, "Warships win battles, but support ships win wars!")

Because of this nomenclature, the carrier & heavy battlegroups found at the
Unoffical NAC Fleet Roster...
http://www.bcpl.net/~indy/full-thrust/nac_roster.html
...needed renaming, but only as slightly as I could.

** Carrier Battlegroups **

Ark Royal Independence Warspite
Victory/Yorktown
Repulse Royal Sovereign
Renown/Peru
Enterprise Nimitz Lexington Forrestal
Saratoga/Uraguay
Hermes
Ranger/Paraguay

** Heavy Battle Squadrons **

Great Britain
Brazil/Argentina
Bolivia
Colombia/Venezuela
United States Mexico Canada Scotland

CV

Ships in Class: ARK ROYAL, ENTERPRISE, VICTORY, LEXINGTON, REPULSE,
INDEPENDENCE, ROYAL SOVEREIGN, NIMITZ, RENOWN, FORRESTAL, HERMES, YORKTOWN,
WARSPITE, RANGER, HOOD, SARATOGA

CVL

Ships in Class: HORNET, KING GEORGE V, WASP, PRINCE OF WALES, BONHOMME
RICHARD, RODNEY, CONSTITUTION, ROYAL OAK, KERSARGE, WARRIOR, KITTY HAWK,
EXETER, LANGLEY, DREADNOUGHT

BB/V - Since this class follows its fighter groups into battle, dynamic
adjectives are used

Ships in Class: AUDACIOUS, DEFIANT, INTREPID, RELIANT, VALIANT

CVE - Since this class is built using destroyer hulls, the class names
use legendary political figures

Ships in Class: Ben Franklin, Ethan Allen, Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, Nathan
Hale, Alexander Hamilton, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, Paul Revere, Winston
Churchill, Oliver Cromwell, Arthur Lord Wellington, Benjamin Disraeli, Horatio
Lord Kitchener, Louis Lord Mountbatten, Bernard Law Montgomery, Margret
Thatcher, Robert the Bruce, Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla, Benito Juarez, Simon
Bolivar

SDN/M

http://www.star-ranger.com/Stuff/images/NAC/NACvallyfM.gif

Ships in Class: UNITED STATES, CANADA

SDN

Ships in Class: GREAT BRITAIN, SCOTLAND, MEXICO, BRAZIL, ARGENTINA, URAGUAY,
PARAGUAY, CHILE, BOLIVIA, PERU, ECUADOR, COLOMBIA, VENEZUELA, WNCC 7016

BDN

Ships in Class: GUATEMALA, BELIZE, HONDURAS, EL SALVADOR, NICARGUA, COSTA
RICA, PANAMA, GUYANA, SURINAM, FRENCH GUIANA, CUBA, HAITI, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC,
JAMAICA, ENCC 7815 BDN, MORE

BB - [Fleet Book]

Ships in Class: CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA, ILLINOIS,
MASSACHUSETTS, INDIANA, WASHINGTON, MINNESOTA, ALABAMA, COLORADO, KENTUCKY,
CONNECTICUT, OREGON, MISSISSIPPI, KANSAS, ARKANSAW, UTAH, NEVADA, WEST
VIRGINIA, NEW MEXICO, IDAHO, NEW HAMSHIRE, NEBRASKA, MONTANA, SOUTH DAKOTA,
NORTH DAKOTA, WYOMING

BB - [http://www.star-ranger.com/Stuff/images/NAC/NACvanguard.gif]

Ships in Class: OHIO, MICHIGAN, NEW JERSEY, NORTH CAROLINA, MISSOURI,
TENNESSEE, WISCONSIN, ARIZONA, OKLAHOMA, IOWA, ALASKA

BB - [http://www.star-ranger.com/Stuff/images/NAC/NAChowe.gif]

Ships in Class: FLORIDA, GEORGIA, VIRGINIA, MARYLAND, LOUISIANA, SOUTH
CAROLINA, MAINE, HAWAII, RHODE ISLAND, DELAWARE, VERMONT

BB - all other variants

Ships in Class: WALES, ULSTER, PUERTO RICO, GIBRALTAR, GUAM, DIEAGO GARCIA,
NOVA SCOTIA, NEWFOUNDLAND, PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND, NEW BRUNSWICK, QUEBEC,
ONTARIO, MANITOBA, SASKATCHEWAN, ALBERTA, BRITISH COLUMBIA, YUKON, DISTRICT OF
MACKENZIE, GRAND BAHAMA, BERMUDA, ST.TOMAS, TORTOLA, ANTIGUA, ST.KITTS,
GUADELOUPE, ANGUILLA, MONTSERRAT, DOMINICA, MARTINIQUE, ST.LUCIA, ST.VINCENT,
BARBADOS, GRENADA, TRINIDAD, CURACAO, ARUBA, GRAND CAYMAN

BC/E - BC/N

Ships in Class: SACRAMENTO, AUSTIN, ALBANY, TALLAHASSEE, HARRISBURG,
SPRINGFIELD, COLUMBUS, LANSING, TRENTON, ATLANTA, RALEIGH, RICHMOND, BOSTON,
INDIANAPOLIS, OLYMPIA, JEFFERSON CITY, NASHVILLE, MADISON, ANNAPOLIS, ST.PAUL,
PHOENIX, BATON ROUGE, MONTGOMERY, DENVER, FRANKFORT, COLUMBIA, OKLAHOMA CITY,
HARTFORD, SALEM, DES MOINES, JACKSON, TOPEKA, LITTLE ROCK, SALT LAKE CITY,
CARSON CITY, CHARLESTON, SANTA FE, AUGUSTA, BOISE, HONOLULU, CONCORD, OMAHA,
PROVIDENCE, HELENA, PIERRE, DOVER, BISMARK, JUNEAU, MONTPELIER, CHEYENNE

BC - all other variants

Ships in Class: District of Columbia, London, Ottawa, Edinburgh, Ciudad de
Mexico, Ciudad de Guatemala, Belmopan, San Salvador, Tegucigapa, Managua, San
Jose, Ciudad de Panama, Brasillia, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Asuncion,
Santiago, La Paz, Lima, Quito, Bogota, Caracas,
Georgetown, Parmaribo, Cayenne, La Habana, Port-a-Prince, Santo Domingo,
Kingston, San Juan, Nassau, Hamilton, Charlotte Amalie, Road Town, Saint
Johns, Basse Terre, The Valley, Plymouth, Roseau, Fort-de-France,
Castries, Bridgetown, Saint George's, Port of Spain, Willemstad, Oranjestad,
Halifax, Fredericton, Charlottetown, Cite du Quebec, Toronto, Winnipeg,
Regina, Edmonton, Victoria, Whitehorse, Yellowknife

Cruisers, and the rest, Tomorrow.

Now I don't want you to get me wrong or anything... I love my country, and I
most certainly don't like the idea of anything happening to make it collapse
or anything... God Bless the USA... but if you look around... there's actually
evidence to support such hypothetical futures such as the one presented in
JMT's setting...

For instance... consider the following....

Currently the majority of companies are finding it cheaper, and thus easier to
stay in business, to use foriegn labor... meaning the more and more jobs are
being shipped overseas. Making our belove country more dependant on foriegn
labor pools.... The only real job markets that are thriving well in America
are those that are tech or service related... and many of those are being
funneled overseas.... The dependancy on those foriegn labor pools puts us at
risk... if anything should happen, from labor strikes to nuclear strikes, to
that labor pool, our economy could suffer a huge blow... Not only would you
have the obvious impact of companies that would suffer from not having
produced a product, but you'd also have to consider many of those companies
would probably face penalties for not delivering on contracts, would would be
more moeny they lose... and are they really going to be able to recoup their
costs from legal pursuit of these foriegn labor pools? I think they'd lose
evven more money....

Immigration from our northern (why Canadians would want to leave their trees
and come here is beyond me!)and southern borders seems vitually unchecked. I
mean, we even have a border policy that suspposedly doesn't have an effect on
people from the countries that share those borders! As more and more of these
imigrants come in, they have two major impacts... first the elimination of
jobs from the market... now granted, most of these are jobs that most
Americans don't want.... but they are >need< jobs, and they aren't there for
us when we need to have them.... And because a large number of these
immigrants are not here legally, they aren't paying taxes... which means that
the overall tax base is smaller, which means that the government has to
increase taxes... and that means less money you keep, and more that you
spend...

Now lets consider the current administration... I'm not Anti-Bush, and
I'm also not Pro-Bush.... But the simple fact is... we do have a major
portion of our forces deployed overseas... and with current events.... it
looks like wew'll have even more going overseas.... add to this the reports
that recruiting isn't going very well for out services and reserve services...
it doesn't look good at all... it may come to a
point that the only real military we have still "in-country" are
militia units and a few national guard units.... This puts us in a very bad
position as far as giving appropriate defensive response to elements of our
infrastructure..... there's also another problem that arises.... it seems that
some states are responding to inadiquate
border policies with their our form of "anti-immigration" rules... and
while the idea of increased state-rule isn't necessarily a bad thing...
it does raise the possibility of such states being declared... "rebelous"....
requiring the need for martial law... that right there would give you your
opening stages of the 2nd American Civil War.... and with all of our troops
overseas... and I highly doubt that the
local Guard and militia units would be up to the task (resource-wise
and moral-wise) of suppressing a fellow state... which would mean
having to ask for foriegn assistance... "at least until we could get our own
troops back home" which would mean foriegn occupation of true american soil on
a major scale, for the first time in how long? And how easy do you really
think it would be, and how long do you think it would take for us to extract
ourselves from the current messes we're in?

> --- John Brewer <JBrewer@webtv.net> wrote:

> I have two problems with the NAC as written up by Jon Tuffley - The

highly doubt that the local Guard and militia units would be up to
the task (resource-wise and moral-wise) of suppressing a fellow
state... which would mean having to ask for foriegn assistance... "at least
until we could get our own troops back home"

Just a "minor" point if you notice our deployments are close to 50/50
reserve/regulars so at any time half the regular forces are state side.
As for the rest of your observations that tend to agree with, I look at it
this way. Our grandparents survived the great depression and then
W.W.II, we'll pull through.......)

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:08:36 -0800 (PST), Rrok Anroll
> <coldnovemberrain_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> they are >need< jobs, and they aren't there for us when we need to

Oddly enough, I'm just not too bothered by immigration, given the number of
first generation Americans I know in the military who are better Americans
that many of those born here. Starting with my current brigade commander.

> it looks like wew'll have even more going overseas.... add to this the

Actually, the services are making recruiting goals.

> point that the only real military we have still "in-country" are

Are you barking mad? Over half the Regs are stateside refitting from
deployment or preparing for deployment. The Pentagon does consider these
things, you know. That's what we pay all those ossifers for.

> it does raise the possibility of such states being declared...

Even GWB has a staff that could spellcheck better than that.

And at any rate, state issues do not necessarily require civil war. The way
our country was designed from the beginning was that there should be a certain
tension between the state and national governments. Has to do with their
different focuses.

> would give you your opening stages of the 2nd American Civil War....

If things got to that point domestically, we would scale back foreign
committments.

> having to ask for foriegn assistance... "at least until we could get

Ummm... NO. There are no nations anywhere in the world capable of deploying
more than a small divisional task force without US logistical assistance. Even
if all the power projection assets of every nation on the planet were
combined, without US assistance they couldn't get enough troops to police LA
much less the entire US.

> easy do you really think it would be, and how long do you think it

For your scenario to work, everyone involved in the planning stages would have
to deliberately be working towards a breakup of the US. And you still have to
handwave this miraculous influx of troops.

On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:08:36 -0800 (PST), Rrok Anroll
> having to ask for foreign assistance... "at least until we could get

Since 1814, or 1865-ish depending on your point of view.  But it's
nearly as implausible as the Official GZG History.

Not particularly aimed at JohnB or Rrok or anyone else, but this topic comes
up fairly often, as does the American or Confederate planet which declares
independence. List shorthand for this is YANBAC: Yet Another NAC Break Away
Colony.

In a message dated 1/6/2005 2:10:15 PM Central Standard Time,
> laserlight@quixnet.net writes:
Not particularly aimed at JohnB or Rrok or anyone else, but this topic comes
up fairly often, as does the American or Confederate planet which declares
independence. List shorthand for this is YANBAC: Yet Another NAC Break Away
Colony. It seems to me that if the original authors had been American the UK
would have been absorb ed due to civil break ups. Same background (180 degree
skew). My own games would ignore the whole thing, but that's my yankee nature
showing through: "You can always tell a yank, but you can't tell him much."

Scott

> On Thursday 06 January 2005 03:08 pm, laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:

***SNIP***

> declares independence. List shorthand for this is YANBAC : Yet

I thought it was customary to use the full acronym instead of just the first
letter of it when it's being used in another acronym.

So shouldn't it be: YANACBAC?

At least it's more fun to say...

> if the original authors had been American the UK would

Most Americans also grab Canada and sometimes Mexico along the way. :-)

To the point originally raised: YUMV. Your Universe May Vary. I think
it's a fine example of future history (I confess I skim-read it as such
things aren't particularly interesting to me).

But I like Jon's, too, since American Civil War does have a certain
historical precedent.  I don't think Jon meant it as an insult -- it's
just his British sense of humor talking.

I mean, it really is crazy to think that Americans would be stupid enough to
accept some sort of constitutional monarchy where the
Presidency was handed down from Father to Son -- oh, wait. . .

;-)

nick

[quoted original message omitted]

mean, it really is crazy to think that Americans would be stupid enough to
accept some sort of constitutional monarchy where the Presidency was
handed down from Father to Son -- oh, wait. . .

;-)

nick

Of course your referring to John Adams and John Quincy
Adams.right.......;-P

A stack of paper on my desk right now - which I am making a serious
effort
to ignore - is all about VHDL, which is an abbreviation for VHSIC
Hardware Description Language. VHSIC itself is an abbreviation for Very High
Speed Integrated Circuit.

Personally I prefer recursive acronyms like (for example):
The GNU Hurd project is named with a mutually-recursive acronym: "Hurd"
stands for "Hird of Unix-Replacing Daemons," and "Hird" stands for "Hurd
of Interfaces Representing Depth." or the classic GNU, which stands for "GNU's
Not Unix!"

Have a good life!

> on 05.1.7 6:01 AM, Flak Magnet (Tim) wrote:

> I thought it was customary to use the full acronym instead of just the

In response... I'd just like to say

WTF?!

j/k

> --- Edward Lipsett <translation@intercomltd.com> wrote:

> A stack of paper on my desk right now - which I am making a serious

If you read the two lines I was responding to I think it might make a bit more
sense... But you're quite right about having lost it! I've been gone for
years.

> on 05.1.7 2:55 PM, Don M wrote:

> In response... I'd just like to say

In response... I'd just like to say

WTF?!

j/k

It's all quite clear actually.....He's lost it lol.

> Don M wrote:

> Edward Lipsett wrote:

Which is a dielect of Ada. Which is not an acronym.

When I first got into FT, I showed my friend the timeline in the book. The two
of us are "amature" history buffs. We are always discussing our own versions
of history. After a bit, we came to the conculsion that the timeline as is,
"In Our Humble Opinion" broken.

(Ie: it was missing some detail to support events and make things happen

that way.  Its important -- to us -- to show the "pivot points".  The
places were history pivots from what we know or can figure out. As it sits,
the timeline dosen't show why the american general was doing what he was
doing.)

If you check the archives (I forget how far back...), Beth came up with a neat
short fix that works nicely. It was something like: Mass terrist attacks (both
nukes and bio) on most of the US, caused

a massive breakdown of the economy, and so the American general was the sole
remaining government structure. His action was asking for a "rescue"
operation....

At least I think that was it....Go check the archives...

Anyone who knows Star Trek history, knows that nations like the US no longer
exist on Kirk's Earth. In some of the episodes Kirk has to explain what the US
was...Kirk is mentioned as being a reader of history.
The crazy wars fought by Khan and his bretherin, distroyed 4/5s of the
planet. With so much distroyed, the idea of a workable "federation" was

easy.

I still think your timeline is very interesting also. Jon Tuffley is always
trying to get players to make their own historys instead of only the "official
history". I would like to see more developments.

Donald Hosford

> John Brewer wrote:

> I have two problems with the NAC as written up by Jon Tuffley - The
JBrewer@webtv.net

> "Always strive to be a good person. If you can't do that, at least

G'day,

Putting aside the whole if you don't like it play a different background
argument as said already.

> ...timeline in the book....is, "In Our Humble Opinion" broken.

> sits, the timeline dosen't show why the american general was doing

I think Jon left the pivot points out for a very good reason, so you can write
your own reasons. That's one of the greatest attractions for me, what
plausible events could lead to the "nodes" Jon has laid out. I think I have as
many different versions as I have had long plane flights
to US/Europe ;)

Turns out there's enough freedom in there to end up with almost any
permutation you like. For instance, using the NAC as the example of the
moment, I've toyed with versions that range from one where the NAC becomes a
fascist dictatorship and revolution is in the offing through to another where
after only a few decades the whole thing ends up as a republic with an elected
head of state. Given the weirdness of real history just about anything is
possible;)

Cheers

In a message dated 1/7/05 7:10:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au writes:

<snip> Given the weirdness of real history just about anything is possible;)

Cheers

Beth

Amen! Hence the NAC and the NI bankrolled the NPC (Native People's Circle) as
a counterbalance to both the IC (with their IF mercs) and the People's Holy
Republic in my games. And the FSE quietly supports the NAC
ties/origins of
the NEA (New European Association - where very  few people of
'traditional' Europe origin are actually present.)

Gracias,

Mr Ada would be chuffed if someone came up with an acronym for his name
though.....
[quoted original message omitted]

> Brendan wrote:

Ms.

As in Ada Augusta Byron, Countess Lovelace.
See http://www.aimsedu.org/Math_History/Samples/ADA/Ada.html

In a message dated 1/8/05 10:00:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> bastard@oalink.com.au writes:

Mr Ada would be chuffed if someone came up with an acronym for his name
though.....

I thought Ada was named after a woman?

Gracias,

In a message dated 1/8/05 11:39:19 PM Pacific  Standard Time,
> aebrain@webone.com.au writes:

Ms.

As in Ada Augusta Byron, Countess Lovelace.
See  http://www.aimsedu.org/Math_History/Samples/ADA/Ada.html

Thanks for confirmation.

Gracias,

> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:

> G'day,
Yes. No argument. Just couldn't think of a cool way to introduce that neet
short fix you came up with.

New thought: -- maybe Jon's timeline is more interesting (to players)
than Jon expected. Might explain why most player histories are variations of
it. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

Donald Hosford

> I think Jon left the pivot points out for a very good reason, so you

Actually - I was think of the guy that designed Ada language

[quoted original message omitted]

> Actually - I was think of the guy that designed Ada language

I was going to ask if there was one 'designer' identified, but this is getting
WAY OT.

Please consider this a call for 'time'.

The_Beast

> New thought: -- maybe Jon's timeline is more interesting (to players)
than Jon expected. Might explain why most player histories are variations of
it. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

I think it's more that the GZGverse is widely known among the players and
people would rather have something familiar, in part because more people are
going to be interested. I pay attention to the the NAC, NSL etc because I know
I'll have opponents who use them; I don't pay attention to the People's
Republic of Mars because I won't see them on the table.

And I suspect people stick close to the GZGverse because it's less work.

That's we we see a lot of "It's the regular GZGverse except X", where X is
"YANBAC" or "Yet Another New Confederacy" or adding a new planet or two
(Alarishi Empire, New Israeli, New Nepal, whatever). Even then, many of
the new additions aren't what I would call overwhelmingly creative--and
again, that may be because it's easier to say "add New Dixie" instead of "This
is what happens when you add Rajput, Kikuyu, Uzbek and Tlingit people
together"

> laserlight@quixnet.net wrote:

> New thought: -- maybe Jon's timeline is more interesting (to players)
And see how others interpret the GZGverse.

> And I suspect people stick close to the GZGverse because it's less
It occures to me that it may be more difficult to come up with something

really creative, because of all of the scifi that has been around. When
someone says Empire lots of peaple tend to think of Starwars, or Traveller.
"Federation" brings up Star Trek, ect.

With Jon's Timeline, most of the work has been done for you.

Donald said:
> It occures to me that it may be more difficult to come up with

Well, if you'd said "In science fiction, what does 'the Empire' refer to?",
I'd have said "The human government in Pournelle's future history. Or the bad
guys in Star Wars. Or Asimov's Foundation books. Or maybe Poul Anderson's
Flandry series. Or possibly the British Empire in Space 1899." All quite
different.

True, in the GZGverse, much of the work has been done for you. There is room
to be creative, either filling in the details of a concept in canon (Noam's
work on the New Israelis, mine on the Islamic Fed) or coming up with an
entirely new concept for a minor power (Beth's IAS, or my Alarishi Empire, for
instance).

I *would* like to see an alternate universe/history developed and
generally agreed to by the List, for use by those who get enough of the Earth
and its nations in Real Life and don't need to be reminded of it on the
tabletop. Could be analogous to, oh, the exploration of Africa, or the opening
of India, or the various privateers operating against the Spanish in the New
World... but using invented ethnic groups and nations. "The Empire of Them
controls the markets of the developing There worlds, but the privateers,
smugglers, and corporate adventurers of This, That and Th'other are busy
trying to establish merchant trading stations with There and raiding Them
merchant
shipping--and occasionally fighting each other too."

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

Several settings do away with Earth-nations through several mechanisms.

1) earth is a single united gov and other powers are either aliens or nations
based on former colonies, eg Star Trek, B5, Honor Harrington,
March Upcountry/to the Sea/to the Stars, Battletech/Star League,
Space:AAB

2) earth is insignificant or "Earth go BOOM" (or splat), eg Andromeda

3) earth is not involved, eg Star Wars, BSG

In case 1, Earth/Humanity can be one amongst approx equals, or can be a
lone superpower whom everyone else avoids (eg Honor Harrington), or can be an
underdog who struggles to avoid getting its ass kicked

Our home grown setting is "earth go SPLAT", and former colonies pick up
where they left off, but with many co-equal antagonists/allies based on
national groups, ie no EU, asian, or NorAm superblocks, but British, American,
French, German, Russian, Japanese, Chinese etc., kind of
1840-1910-ish.  We hold the flavor of traditional Naval naming
conventions, but add some that never made it to sea, eg American
state-named /Japanese province-named capital ships supplimented by
colony names, traditional British capital-ship names supplimented by
battles and Admirals of WW1 and WW2, etc.

Another option might be to go along the lines of Battletech but pick up after
the formation of the Terran Hegemony but before the formation of
the 5 houses, so there are a couple of dozen multi-system nations
jocking for dominance amongst the many colony worlds, but united earth
is not a superpower.  This gives ready-made nation-names and spatial
relationships.

J

> Laserlight wrote:

> Well, if you'd said "In science fiction, what does 'the Empire' refer
See -- A lot of really great settings....all the easy ones have been
done already.

> True, in the GZGverse, much of the work has been done for you. There
And the great thing is you can take these "new" additions or leave them out. I
just love to watch the developments.

I was looking over the BattleFleetGothic rules the other day. I noticed that
they included the entire Gothic war history in the rulebook.

(http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/      Look for the
"Living Rule book.)

  Nicely done. (the history/setting that is...)  Not too detailed to
prevent player ideas.

> I *would* like to see an alternate universe/history developed and
This I would like to see also. Sounds like you have the gem of a good idea.

Should we start developing this?  See who jumps on-board?  Anyone?

How about some initial ideas? Maybe use existing ship minis for some of the
ships... Maybe assign some technologies to specific nations.... Maybe start
each nation out with a simple
Escort/Destroyer/Cruiser/Battleship fleet model...
Add specialty classes later...

Just some ideas...

> J L Hilal wrote:

> Several settings do away with Earth-nations through several mechanisms.
The sci-fi series "Firefly" also is "Earth go BOOM".  On the show, it is

refered to as "the Earth that was". Also "Titan AE" The Earth gets it right at
the begining of the picture.

> 3) earth is not involved, eg Star Wars, BSG
I think "Starchaser: The Ledgion of Orin". I think Earth wasn't
mentioned...(Could be wrong.)

> In case 1, Earth/Humanity can be one amongst approx equals, or can be a
HH is cool. Reading about her kicking but is entertaining. At work I
read the E-novels on my breaks, and am nearly late getting back....8-D

> Our home grown setting is "earth go SPLAT", and former colonies pick up
Two good sources of names and insperation. One must not pass up any good fun
ideas.

Donald Hosford said:
> Laserlight wrote:

> This I would like to see also. Sounds like you have the gem of a good

Funnily enough, I started sketching out some ideas based on a very old
campaign of mine, with the idea to use FT ships for the wargame side. The
principle idea is as a background for an RPG though.

I started from some core requirements, and then designed the future history to
allow for these. e.g.: 1) Sufficiently far in the future that current events
aren't going to affect the history. 2) Current Earth powers are obselete, due
to major upheavals. 3) Slow travel and communication, to allow minor powers to
form with autonomy from the core. 4) No advanced computers, especially AI. 5)
Humanocentric (much like the GZG universe).

So, it's set in the 25th century, Sol system has been destroyed during the
Machine Wars. Advanced computers are banned due to fear of the Machines (I
have Dune's OC Bible in mind). Traveller style Jump drives, which preserves
the mystery of what is going on in the sector next door. The human Powers are
ruled by families of Immortals, who are keeping advanced tech to themselves.

It may be an idea to plan things this way around - decide what
sort of universe and setting you want before planning the history.

The other thing to decide is the license - I'd suggest some
sort of Free license so others are free to take what is done and extend it,
but then I'm a Free Software kind of guy. One of the other reasons I started
thinking about this was that I wanted to be able to put my NSL designs up on
the web under a Free license, which I can't do if they're based on the
official fleet designs.

> I *would* like to see an alternate universe/history developed and

DonH said:
> This I would like to see also. Sounds like you have the gem of a good

Definitely use existing GZG minis.

> Maybe assign some technologies to specific nations....

I'm not entirely happy with the mass categories in the GZGverse. I'd prefer
something like Mass 20 missile boat, Mass 40 DD, Mass 120 Cruiser, Mass 300
Battleship, Mass 600 Superbattleship...that may be a little too steep a curve,
but it's analogous to WW2 ship displacements.

The original definition of distroyer, frigate, cruiser and fleet ship is the
lay out and weapon load out verses mass. Each was rigged for a duty as the
fleet ship was general duty and most handicapped of the admiralty approved
loads.

"laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:>I *would* like
to see an alternate universe/history developed and
> generally agreed to by the List, for use by those who get enough of

DonH said:
> This I would like to see also. Sounds like you have the gem of a good

Definitely use existing GZG minis.

> Maybe assign some technologies to specific nations....

I'm not entirely happy with the mass categories in the GZGverse. I'd prefer
something like Mass 20 missile boat, Mass 40 DD, Mass 120 Cruiser, Mass 300
Battleship, Mass 600 Superbattleship...that may be a little too steep a curve,
but it's analogous to WW2 ship displacements.

> The sci-fi series "Firefly" also is "Earth go BOOM". On the show, it

A bit off-topic, but one of my favorite post-Earth sci-fi backgrounds
was
in the Warzone RPG/TTG.

For years, all we knew about Earth, the "Dark Eden," was that humanity left
there to colonize the rest of the solar system, and no one went there anymore.
No one. As the backstory unfolded, we found out that the Earth's environment
was so poisoned by humanity's industrialization, and the natural resources
were so depleted, that the Earth could no longer support human life. The
megacorporations that pretty much ran everything built vast arks to carry
their employees and their families to colonies on other planets... and left
everyone else there on the dying planet. Eventually, our heroes have to go
back down to Earth to prevent a cataclysm on the moon (in and of itself a
great story.) The few survivors are the descendents of the people that learned
to adapt to the horrific environment one way or another.

-P.

> Charles Lee wrote: