--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: Stargrunt-Fullthrust@yahoogroups.com
To: Stargrunt-Fullthrust@yahoogroups.com
<snip> Message: 1
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:14:52 -0000
From: triphibious@juno.com
Subject: Needle Beams redux
Okay, other then play balance, which is valid, what logic disallows Needle
Beams from hitting 'core systems' in ships?
We are talking targets over 'long' distances and that are points essentially.
For the non-Cartographers here, I think of a point as a location that
has (literally or essentially) no length, width, or depth. Unlike lines which
have measurable lingth and areas which have 2 dimensions (at least.)
So a system that targets a point in space over significant distances lacks the
last bit of 'reach' to penetrate the center of a starship? It seems to me that
is (again other then the play balance thing) a big
PSB...
Gracias,
> On Fri, 23 February 2001, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
> Okay, other then play balance, which is valid, what logic disallows
My reasoning (and I'm not sure if this is official or anything) is that "core
systems" are treated like other systems for the threshold mechanic, but are,
in fact, "critical hits". If you've played "Silent Death", there are points on
the hull chart where you lose weapons, systems, or test for critical hits.
When you get to a critical hit box, you roll randomly on a chart to see what
happens. This mechanic is replicated in Full Thrust as the core system option
in the threshold mechanism.
The core systems are systems in the sense that they are "things to check"
during the threshold procedure. In actuality they aren't physical systems on
the starship, but an abstraction of a critical hit. It's an unlucky occurance.
It's not really a system that can be hit by damage, but a "happinstance" that
you check for after the ship has taken a certain amount of damage.
You can't target a "warp core breach". A warp core breach is a situation that
can happen, statistically, after a ship has taken a certain amount of damage.
The same with the other core systems.
So, you can't target the warp core with a needle beam. But, if a ship takes
enough general damage, there is a statistical probability that a core system
was damaged.
That's my way of thinking, anyway.
> Okay, other then play balance, which is valid, what logic disallows
The ship has an outer layer which has surface systems--radars, weapons,
etc--and an inner core which has CIC, fusion bottle, etc. Needles put a
high energy burst into a surface target but it doesn't penetrate through
multiple decks.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:35:13 -0500 "laserlight@quixnet.net"
> <laserlight@quixnet.net> writes:
(trying foolishly to keep the scale of the ship and the scale of the
'firefight' both in mind) "Um, okay, if you say so..." <grin>
I still find the 'core systems' aren't specific objects as much as
'catastrophic events' easier for my particular perversion of canon
PSB...
Bottom line, most people find it unbalancing to use Needle Beams for targeting
core systems. Okay, I am in a minority. Been there before. I will keep it
specific to certain scenarios in my "Starguard Conversion to
FT/DS2 Campaign" setting - where only the otherwise somewhat bland
extremely paranoid to the point of mild to moderate xenophobia Nektons will be
routinely mounting Needle Beams on their ships.
> On 23 Feb 2001 12:31:31 -0800 agoodall@canada.com writes:
<snip>
> You can't target a "warp core breach". A warp core breach is a
Okay, that is more understandable. At least to me...
Any enlightenment from Jon T.?
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:08:54 EST, Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> Bottom line, most people find it unbalancing to use Needle Beams for
I
> will keep it specific to certain scenarios in my "Starguard Conversion
Well, it is unbalancing. One single needle beam shot could essentially take
out the entire ship. You would have people loading up on needle beams only and
targeting the core systems. The needle beams aren't expensive enough for that.
Now, as a scenario specific game, sure. Go for it! It's one of the things I
like about FT. It's very flexible.
> Okay, other then play balance, which is valid, what logic disallows
Yep, that's pretty much how my original reasoning went. Needles are NOT
penetrators - they are just very accurate pinpoint weapons that can
target
(sometimes) chosen bits on the surface of the ship - weapon mounts,
drive tubes, sensor pods etc, rather than hitting at random. The core systems
are
exactly what they say - buried deep in the ship's core, and not
vulnerable to damage until you've chewed up the outer stuff.
[quoted original message omitted]
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:08:54 EST, Glenn M Wilson
PSB for needle beams not being able to hit core systems is twofold:
1) Core systems have some redundancy, and are distributed a little. The
command facilities are not disabled by hits to the bridge, pilot house, CIC
and auxillary control, they are disabled when the intercom finally has zero
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:56:16 -0500 Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
writes:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:08:54 EST, Glenn M Wilson
100% agree on that.
> Now, as a scenario specific game, sure. Go for it! It's one of the
Okay, I will. I plan to balance it by restricting size of Nekton ships to LC,
maybe EC, in size. Other guys will have normal size selections. Also, loss of
Nekton Ships (destroyed, captured) will be double victory points (when you're
starship build capacity in restricted to 'Home' and a few other planets (at
best) then every loss is harder to make up...
Thought about doing 150% or 200% on points per ship (100 point ship costs 150
or 200 points from available build points) to reflect the scarcity and
difficulty of building ships when you're one of the smaller powers on the
board... Less, and smaller, ships means less Needle Beams per strike force of
'x' points.
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:23:33 +0000 Ground Zero Games <jon@gzg.com>
writes: <snip>
> Yep, that's pretty much how my original reasoning went. Needles are
Okay, then it's (game) battle physics. Soooo, except for my Nekton 'Death to
all Aliens" [everybody but Nektons of course] scenarios there will be no
targeting of core systems by Needle Beams.
*****
Now, Since I *do* want those nasty little remoras with legs to be able to
do exactly that in my campaign over Cotu, let me pose the question - how
much mass and how much cost would be appropriate for such a 'nasty, inhumane'
system? {But they are not human...<toothy grin>} Maybe two
sets of mass/cost? One for the Xeno-killer 'terror-pack' ships under
size (FT terms) 19, and a different cost/mass for ships size 19-36.
Nektons will usually (due to time tying up critical ship building resources)
not build ships greater then size 36.
Here's a SWAG -
Light Nekton ship 'Deep Stab Beam':
Mass 4, cost 18 points - this equates to no more then 2 Needle Beams on
a maximum size 18 ship, with 1 mass for 'C' beam or single PDAF or 1
submunition.
Range 6", hits system on a '6' with no other damage, on a '5' does 1 box
damage to hull instead.
Medium Nekton 'Deep Bite Beam':
Mass 8, Cost 25 points - this means even a maximum equipped ship of 36
mass could carry 4 (with 4 mass for other weapons.)
Range 9", hits system on a '6' with no other damage, on a '5' does two hull
boxes damage only.