More future history questions - USA (and Canada apparently)

3 posts ยท Jan 29 2012 to Jan 30 2012

From: Tom B <kaladorn@g...>

Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 02:11:10 -0500

Subject: RE: More future history questions - USA (and Canada apparently)

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As a Canadian who has lived in Ontario and Alberta, travelled from East Coast
to West Coast, worked for a company HQ'd in Montreal, and travelled
extensively in Northern and Southern Ontario, the Prairies, and British
Columbia, and who has visited ND, MN, MI, MO, WI, NY, PA, CT, MA and FL in the
US, I tend to differ a bit with some of his thoughts, if not his general
premise.

The reality is that North America, if it were divided up by commonality of
lifestyle or politics, could be divided up a lot more like what he has (or
just longitudinally) versus the latitudinal split that Canada and the US
arranged.

A farmer in Montana or Alberta has more in common with the other than anyone
either with Ottawa or the District of Columbia. I suspect the same would be
true of Maritime or New England folk and possibly people in
Detroit/Windsor, and Vancouver and Seattle.

On the other hand, Canadians take a fairly intense attitude towards not being
American. I don't really see an amalgamation selling in most of Canada
(Alberta being a possible exception). There is a distinctly more
left-leaning (or at least social safety net oriented) culture in most of
Canada. This has become more pronounced in the wake of the 9/11 attacks
due to America's choices in security that many here find disturbing (I can
probably throw in the whole government on the side of corporations not
citizens aspect too). That is probably transient historically speaking, but it
pertains at the present.

But let us assume that the politics of the two countries are less dictated by
nationality than similar employment. This totally ignores the fact that US
breadbasket states and Canadian prairies are often heavy competitors, and BC
with US lumber sources, etc. which is another reason getting together would be
hard. But let's sweep that one under the rug too (unlikely, but hey...).

I can see Coastal BC and some or all of Washington State being together. Less
sure of the BC interior because it isn't so much weed smoking urbanite latte
sippers as it is religious fundamentalist communities and conservative old
folks tucked into the mountain valleys. Hard to say if CA really fits that
mix, but it could.

Alberta should be its own Republic. I think that's their goal eventually.
Something like what Texas always fancies itself. Very similar cultures I
think. Alberta is most similar in its attitude to business, firearms,
politics, social safety nets (or the less of them the better), etc. On the
other hand, if it spends its resource money well, it will be an economic
powerhouse (already is part way there now in Canada on the back of oil and
other resources).

The Great Plains states and Manitoba and Saskatchewan could integrate. There'd
probably have to be a bit more of a leftward shift on the US side and a
rightward one on the Canadian side, but its not a huge gulf.

Northern Ontario, Oregon, Wisconsin and perhaps parts of Michigan would make
sense together. Lots of forests, mining, sparse population, remote areas, etc.

Southern Ontario and New York and parts of Michigan would make some sense
together. The North would be then considered 'the lefty section' but otherwise
economies may be fairly similar.

Quebec, if it was an independent Repbulic, would not hold all the land it does
now. Sections of it along the Ontario border would want to stay with Ontario
for economic reasons and sections along the Gaspe could provoke a fight with
Acadian seperatists. Plus lots of natives would want to seperate from a
sovereign Quebec.

The Maritimes would have a lot of resources from offshore oil, fisheries, and
mining in some mix. Like Alberta, if they invest the money well, they'll be
well positioned for the future. I assume New England is similar in those
regards. But they'd not be getting New York or else if they did, New York
would be calling th shots.

The South could seperate again into a fairly large block. Texas could be its
own Republic. Maybe the Latino dominated section of America could be its own
block (hence where CA, AZ, NM, SD, etc. might be).

Hawaii is its own entity. It's an oddity for Japan or the US. It might end up
independent.

The Canadian North and Alaska could probably merge with little difficulty and
little notice from the rest of the universe. If the North West Passage softens
up due to warming, it might have some good ports built and have a more
thriving coastal economy as well as a lot of exploitable resources. The main
land mass of the north, if it got warmer, would be a nasty muskeg bog and not
much use for anything.

I doubt anyplace would call itself "Ecotopia". I doubt places would end up
with names like Forge or Breadbasket. You just know the names would be less
silly. These are the equivalent of someone naming their country 'Barney'. But
that's just a quibble.

Still, I don't think any of these are feasible as long as the US retains its
distinct national character. Until the US finally decides the great experiment
has failed or that being an American is more important than being a (insert
regional allegiance), the US isn't going anywhere.

For Canada, a merger could happen slowly for economic reasons but a lot of PR
work would need to be done and the US would have to stop throwing its weight
around in the world (I'm just reflecting the sentiments I see in some
urbanites here...not my own view) but that may happen for economic reasons.
We're a country that has an odd lack of self confidence noted by one of my
American friends; Americans never define themselves as 'not being
Canadian' - they use some sort of description of what being American is.
Canadians often find themselves defining themselves by how they do not hold
some commonality of view with their American neighbours. That's a
generalization, but I found some truth to it. I suppose any minority next
to a majority will show a bit of that (AUS/NZ for instance, ENG/SCOT for
another).

From: Roger Burton West <roger@f...>

Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 15:56:01 +0000

Subject: Re: More future history questions - USA (and Canada apparently)

> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 02:11:10AM -0500, Tom B wrote:

> Still, I don't think any of these are feasible as long as the US

In the Crimson Skies setting, the destruction of the USA comes from several
different angles:

- The influenza epidemic after the Great War is more severe, meaning
that a lot of places become suspicious of strangers and cut
communications with possibly-infected neighbours;

- Support for Prohibition is stronger but tends to be local: federal
Prohibition meets a lot more opposition from places that want to make their
own decisions about alcohol, and fails, but individual
states/counties/towns enact their own versions.

- A new, nastier, flu epidemic breaks out in 1927, and people are
already willing to shut borders (particularly wet state / dry state
borders).

- The stock market crash is the last straw.

But as you see it takes quite a bit of setting up...

R

From: Indy Kochte <kochte@s...>

Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 22:42:19 -0500

Subject: Re: More future history questions - USA (and Canada apparently)

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> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:11 AM, Tom B <kaladorn@gmail.com> wrote:

> textfilter: chose text/plain from a multipart/alternative

[...]
> Hawaii is its own entity. It's an oddity for Japan or the US. It might

Which is what I thought way back when I proposed the Hawai'ian Free State 9 or
10 years ago. I wrote up a thing for the GZGPedia, but it never made it in.
And some folks on the list insisted that Hawai'i was the province of the OU
instead.

Mk