Centurion Atkinson say:
Bayonet BAD!
BAD! BAD! BAD!
Sneaky Italian people make mines with magnetic fuzes
and sell them on cash-and-carry basis to every kind of
undesirable LOON you can imagine!
[Tomb] Citizen Atkinson, what made you think my bayonet was made of
METAL? Here in A&E territory we take advantage of modern null-G
manufacturing to grow large crystaline formations and using a patented (and
secret) bonding mechanism, we create crystal laminates
(Damascrys) which we then nano-hone giving us sharp edges, high
tensile and shatter strengths, and sufficient shock absorbing qualities. These
are not the bayonets of 200 years ago! And they can safely prod magnetic
mines!:)
(Which we still prefer to have professional trained engineers handle, thank
you very much).
> --- kaladorn@magma.ca wrote:
Make up your mind (for the record, Tetrarchos or Pentarchos is closer to the
truth...)
Funny story: Was discussing history of Roman Empire last Sunday, and said
something to the effect of "We didn't really have a functioning democracy
after the Gracchi brothers got ahold of it." One of the guys says, "We? What
do you mean we?" Had to show him my
arm. :)
<snip expensive process>
> qualities. These are not the bayonets of 200 years
We save hundreds of credits per bayonet by having
high-quality carbon steel. It's more effective for
the purposes bayonets are usually used for, and much cheaper.
A half-cred fiberglass prober is cheaper.
> [Tomb] Here in A&E territory we take advantage of modern null-G
Piffle. We use a plasma arc, gaseous carbon and a trace of nickel to create
ultra high molecular weight buckytubes, use the resulting monomelecular thread
to create a matrix, then fill with silicon epoxy (or whatever you specify).
The resulting implement can be shaped with the right gear, but is unbreakable.
***
which we then nano-hone giving us sharp edges,
***
We save hundreds of credits per bayonet by having
high-quality carbon steel. It's more effective for
the purposes bayonets are usually used for, and much cheaper.
***
Well, the 'new-and-improved' might well be better at piercing limited
body armor, but probably also the case of the mine, which I'm thinking might
well also trip a mechanical component or cause a short circuit...
***
(Which we still prefer to have professional trained engineers handle, thank
you very much).
***
Definitely wise-sounding to me.
The_Beast
Such low tech equipment! The obvious choice is the Mine-Master 22000
with ground penetrating radar, aerial chemical residue
auto-sampler/analyzer with smart, self-extruding carbon fiber probe
attachment and optional automatic microwave pulse generator for disarming
smart mines.
Why waste valuable personnel probing at close range when the MM22K can
give a full data read-out of nearly all mines within a 10M radius, and
drawing from a standard database of 2539 known types of mines and explosives
will identify and list detailed instructions on disabling or disarming them.
(Optional annual database upgrade is only 2K CR per year).
YMMV. Mine-Master Corp. does not accept any responsibility for any
damage or death that may result from incorrect usage of its products. No
product can safely detect all mines all the time. Please use caution
when entering a minefield. Mine-Master Corp. will replace defective
equipment with proof of mechanical failure.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
Well, there's the old fashioned method of checking minefields....
Just nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
:-)
Mike Hudak mihudak@state.pa.us
Fact is, there's nothing out there you can't do..... Yeah, even Santa Claus
believes in you.....
Dr Teeth and the Electric Mayhem,"Can you picture that", Muppet Movie
Soundtrack
Presenting the 2002 Governor's Award Winners
http://www.greenworks.tv/govawards2002/
Enjoy Fall in PA! Leaves are changing!
http://www.fallinpa.com
> -----Original Message-----
I said
> Piffle. We use a plasma arc, gaseous carbon and a trace of nickel to
> From: B Lin
No, no--for close combat weapons. We fight on bare rock, mostly, so
there's not much application for "probing for mines".
> Such low tech equipment! The obvious choice is the Mine-Master 22000
(Optional annual database upgrade is only 2K CR per year).
> YMMV. Mine-Master Corp. does not accept any responsibility for any
...May contain nuts...
> --Binhan
> At 2:21 PM -0400 9/27/02, kaladorn@magma.ca wrote:
How do they handle troops using them as screwdrivers, beer openers or hammers?
> At 1:27 PM -0600 9/27/02, B Lin wrote:
In other words, Pookie!!!!
http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/6.2/features/willielawrence/willielawrence.h
tm
--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> No, no--for close combat weapons. We fight on bare
I'm glad you think so.
Take the standard M-10 NRE Scatterable Minefield Kit
with the asteroid seeding MWO which consists of cheap plastic shrouds designed
to make them look like carbonaceous minimeteors and you might be caught a
little short.
> --- B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
You STILL need to check false positives the hard way.
> Take the standard M-10 NRE Scatterable Minefield Kit
And do your troops normally use probes on rocks, John?
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Nah, we prefer radars built into the PA helmets.
But, dammit, if the French Foreign Legion can carry pioneer axes on PARADE and
grow a verdammt beard (!), then I can issue fiberglass mineprobes.
And pioneer axes.
And everyone grows a beard anyway. It's the Greek thing to do.[1]
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> Or the PAU's integrated mine-searching and removal
What's the detonation inducer? Rats can't weigh more than a couple of pounds,
how do they set off mines that require more pressure to function?
In a message dated 9/28/02 9:21:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> johnmatkinson@yahoo.com writes:
> > Or the PAU's integrated mine-searching and removal
This is from RL, so might be off topic. :-)
In the WTC cleanup they were working with rats that carried small backpacks
with a camera on board, they had wires into their head that allowed their
handlers to use a joystick like device to make them move in different
directions. It was hoped they could get deeper into the pile than search
dogs, and help direct the search and rescue teams. Not sure how useful they
actually were, but how big a charge would one have to be carrying to set off a
mine the rat was sitting on?
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
> --- JRebori682@aol.com wrote:
> This is from RL, so might be off topic. :-)
I don't know whether that's creepy or cool.
It was hoped they could get deeper into
> the pile than search
Oh, a half-pound would do nicely. If you get it in
contact, a quarter pound would likely suffice.
***
Oh, a half-pound would do nicely. If you get it in
contact, a quarter pound would likely suffice.
***
Well, the assumption is that the rodents would be able to make near contact.
Four ounces of explosive on top of all the rest of the gear sounds like quite
a bit for all but the largest rats, though. Not that I haven't seen a rat on
the street large enough to carry it on a wrist. *shudder*
RE: Remote control rats
***
I don't know whether that's creepy or cool.
***
Doesn't seem that most of what you hear these days is definitely all of the
above?
Slightly on topic, one could always get one of those 'rat swarm' figs, form
epoxy headgear and backpacks, and use them as 'mine clearing' markers on an
SGII battlefield. I will, as always, leave rule design to others.
The_Beast
> ***
*shudder*
> RE: Remote control rats
Getting one remote control rat to blow up a mine is easy. Getting a bunch of
remote control rats to blow up a bunch of mines one after another could be
entirely different. Rats are smart and probably will not be cooperative
after the first one or two went in and blew-up... Does anyone enough
about rat psychology to see if this would be a problem or not?
***
Getting one remote control rat to blow up a mine is easy. Getting a bunch of
remote control rats to blow up a bunch of mines one after another could be
entirely different. Rats are smart and probably will not be cooperative
after the first one or two went in and blew-up... Does anyone enough
about rat psychology to see if this would be a problem or not?
***
No claims as to psych, but two things appear pretty obvious to me: a) we
were talking about semi-controlled, so they'd not be bunching up but
spreading out over the whole field, b) they could be trained to cover an area
in the manner described in a).
Anyway, I'm not sold that they'd be understanding that 'oh, Reginald bought it
doing just what I'm doing, so I better stop.'
Natural selection would favor the rats that failed in training, but training
would favor only those that succeeded.
Of course, if you wanted to suggest counter-counter-mine snakes...
The_Beast
> Of course, if you wanted to suggest counter-counter-mine snakes...
Counter-counter-counter measure mongeese...
In a message dated 9/28/02 2:08:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> laserlight@quixnet.net writes:
> > Of course, if you wanted to suggest counter-counter-mine snakes...
Mister President, we CANNOT allow a mongoose gap!!! John Rebori ETN2
(Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
In a message dated 9/28/02 9:59:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> johnmatkinson@yahoo.com writes:
> I don't know whether that's creepy or cool.
I thought it was cool when I first saw it, noticed there were little wires
from the pack into the back of the rats head, that's when I decided it was
creepy. Of course, being a basically sane ex-military wargamer I thought
of all kinds of really scary possibilities.
I think 1/4 pound is a lot for the average rat also. If not mine
clearing, what about recon though?
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
> No claims as to psych, but two things appear pretty obvious to me: a)
we
> were talking about semi-controlled, so they'd not be bunching up but
My concern is what will the rats do when there is an explosion nearby. Most
animals are spooked by explosions, etc. So what will the
semi-controlled
rats do? Follow commands or bolt and run? I suppose you could brain wash
the rats to ignore explosions. Then you would have semi-controlled
brain washed rats running with camera's and bombs strapped to their backs...
> --- JRebori682@aol.com wrote:
> If not mine clearing,
How many MPH can a rat make cross-country? Can he
march for 8 hours? How much would the requirement to forage for food affect
it?
There's too many variables I don't know about to even guess.
> --- devans@nebraska.edu wrote:
> Slightly on topic, one could always get one of those
There was a book entitled Rat, Bats, and Vats, IIRC by Eric Flint on that
topic.
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 JRebori682@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/28/02 2:08:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ah, Dr.Strangelove weighs in! Now, I've noticed that when someone adds a Monty
Python quote to a thread it's destined for terminal silliness and probably
Narns quite shortly.
What does it mean when Dr.Strangelove is quoted?:)
> ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
Very cool - that was the hydrofoil missle frigate, right? Now I get your
earlier ref to A-10 pilots having more armour than your entire ship!
"inside you will find: 1 45 caliber pistol 3 hershey bars 6 pair of nylons..."
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 9/28/02 3:40:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> yh728@victoria.tc.ca writes:
> > ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
Not a frigate, just a lowly patrol craft, hence the P in PHM, only a 20 man
crew, counting the Zeros. But yeah, that was the point. :-)
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
G'day,
> What's the detonation inducer? Rats can't weigh more
Luckily for the rats involved they're not supposed to induce detonation, they
just do the minefield location and confirmation of clearance (the African
giant pouched rat has an EXCEPTIONALLY good sense of smell and thus can detect
the mines).
Cheers
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
Why bother with mines. Just train them to the scent of the opponent's uniform
or helmet liners. It would make troops in the field really paranoid to sleep
in the open, since you would never know if a rat was sneaking up to your head.
The rat controller could set loose dozens of wild rats first to saturate any
sensors then sneak a few controlled rats into the area. They would seek out
helmets, the controller, through the camera would check for a head inside,
then detonate the rat.
--Binhan
> My concern is what will the rats do when there is an
If you're interested in the book "Rats, Bats and Vats" it is available for
free on the Baen.com Free Library.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
G'day,
Another question while we're on the topic of mines. Can any current (or
potential future) mine types explode when something is just within x radius
instead of right on top? I was talking with a South African friend of mine
how's worked with the species of rat they're using to do the mine stuff and
she'd heard (so heaven knows how reliable this is) that you can get the rats
to sit on top of the mines and thus "map the nearby field". With that in mind
it wouldn't be so useful if the mines were just set off by heavy enough
movement nearby. Mind you with the development of mines that move about I
think there's a whole new batch of mine probing nightmares to worry about;)
Cheers
In a message dated 9/30/02 7:55:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au writes:
> G'day,
I can't speak for the ground pounders, but naval mines use MAD and such to
explode near ships, rather than having to actually hit them. Some even have
counters that keep them from detonating till several ships have passed by. I
cant imagine why it couldn't be done on land. Tanks must have a magnetic
signature of some kind.
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
> At 9:42 AM +1000 10/1/02, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
You could use all sorts of different detonation functions. As John mentioned
already, theres an italian mine designed to go off it metal is poked near it
like a bayonet. I'm sure a big vehicle or AFV would set one off.
I have to wonder how you'd build into a mine a self defense mode for dealing
with well trained critters. You don't want it to go off because some random
water rat walks past your mine. So how do you tell the difference between a
civilian rat and a military rat?
John Rebon wrote (in a formatted post):
> Another question while we're on the topic of mines. Can any current
Sure, there are magnetic fuses for AT mines... and just as with magnetic
naval mines, there are ways to fool them into detonating prematurely :-/
Later,
[quoted original message omitted]
In a message dated 10/1/02 1:05:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> oerjan.ohlson@telia.com writes:
> Sure, there are magnetic fuses for AT mines... and just as with
Figured as much, and those countermeasures are why some mines dont detonate
till they have been triggered several times. Nasty game minework, wherever you
do it.
John Rebori ETN2 (Discharged)
USN 1976 - 1982
ex-USS Pegasus PHM-1
The problem with moving mines, is that they move. If the opponent sets up
passive sensors, they might be able to detect the movement of the mines and
chart out their locations. The downside to moving mines for friendlies is that
there wouldn't be a clear path through them and it would be very difficult
even for friendlies to clear the field afterward. If you have a system that
either allows you to track the
mines or predict where they are (i.e. pre-programmed patterns) the enemy
might be able to use the same means to find them.
As for having mines that go off for smaller weights or at a distance -
one problem then is local wildlife. Every pocket gopher, badger, deer, large
bird that lands on or near a mine would set it off. The point of
the mine is to disable or kill an enemy soldier/vehicle and if they are
too sensitive they are relatively easy to clear - you just saturate the
area with lots of pressure - such as bomblets from
artillery/rockets/bombs or clearing charges like tube explosives,
fuel-air explosives and the like.
Pretty much the counter to anti-mine rats is AR (anti-rat) mines. Small
mines that have a large chemical signature but a easily tripped detonator. If
every third mine were AR, you'd need a lot of rats to mark a field and I'm
assuming that AR mines are cheaper than training an
Anti-mine rat.
(Note that the Russians already have a lot of experience in making
booby-trapped toys, mines and other displacement sensitive explosive
that can be delivered by air or dispersed by ground troops)
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> At 9:42 AM +1000 10/1/02, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
I remember advertising for the Metal Storm System about the use of it with
either an operator, or set to remote operations for possible firing, replacing
a conventional minefield.
Set up a network of sensors of some kind, anti-vehicle/personal, when
the trigger is activated the self deployed weapon system blankets the target
zone automatically. So in cases like this, a minefield might have only 2 or 3
camouflaged firing boxes for ordinance, plus several sensor arrays and have
the ability recognise friend or foe, and make battlefield clean up easier.
Here is a link to the Metal Storm Web Site.
http://www.metalstorm.com/
Rodney.
> On 1 Oct 2002 at 9:43, B Lin wrote:
> The point of the mine is to disable or kill an enemy
I'm sure John A will say something about this, but as far as I'm
aware the point of a mine is to _potentially_ kill an enemy. Mines
work best when they force the enemy to slow down, or pick another route, or do
something other than what they wanted to do. Killing or wounding is just a
bonus.
It doesn't matter if the enemy learns that there's a minefield
present. That just gives _them_ one more thing to worry about.
Try it in SG2 (gosh bringing it on topic?). When you're defending, stick a
'Warning Mine Field' sign on the map. Don't say anything about it. Watch your
opponent take the long way round, under fire all the way,
> On 1 Oct 2002 at 9:43, B Lin wrote:
Good point, Steve. Same goes for Dirtside. Some of the most effective
minefields I have seen were when the opponent never even set them off, but
spent more time worrying about how to get around them (or how to get the
engineers to them safely) then was worthwhile. Even better when you know that
they are dummies.:)
> On 1-Oct-02 at 21:42, Noel Weer (noel.weer@verizon.net) wrote:
> Good point, Steve. Same goes for Dirtside. Some of the most effective
Our first DS gaming involving mines went like this:
(Me, as ref to the newbie with mines) Don't think of them as things that blow
up but as impassable terrain where you want it.
She treated it that way. Opposing player first tried to blow through them and
lost 3 of 4 heavy tanks in the unit. After that he avoided them quite well and
her placement won her the game. He ended up running the gauntlet on the road.
> --- B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
> (Note that the Russians already have a lot of
Cite source or retract. And creditable source, thank you. This is a silly
urban legend that really gets on my nerves.
As for displacement sensitive scatterable mines, I defy you to safely pick up
a US scat mine.
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Sure. How do you want to do it? Vibration, acoustic, magnetic, tripwire, IR
are the easiest types. You could get more exotic, but are limited by battery
power.
> ------------------------------
The origins of the "toy" mine are true but it wasn't a toy.
The Russians developed an air dropable anti personnel mine that had a plastic
casing. It was camouflaged and was of a somewhat unusual shape (non
aerodynamic to slow it down?) and it was used in Afghanistan. Kids being what
they are would see plastic green(?) colored thing and pick it up.
The reason I remember the article was that one version of the ICM (Improved
Conventional Munitions) that the US used did not go off on contact and I
wondered what it looked like. I will be honest and say that I didn't keep
track of the source of the article.
If I remember correctly the US scat mine is designed to self distrust after a
fixed time has passed. The ICM round did not have any self distruct but it was
not a common round (the explode on contact was the most common version of ICM
round).
> - --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Why is it that everone forget the ultimate in mine triggers "command
detonated" (A being with a button). It will go off when troops are in range
with no warning. It can be put deep enough so no probe will detect it. It can
be setup so that a whole road section goes up with proper seperation
(detonator cord between charges) for vehicle dispersal. The "Being" can be
miles away or next to the mine with a hammer (Japanse WWII version). The mine
may even be set off weeks after the target was "cleared".
> --- Scott Siebold <gamers@ameritech.net> wrote:
> Why is it that everone forget the ultimate in mine
Because, while such items are technically mines, they are used differently.
They are used as a supplement to a unit's firepower rather than as a tactical
obstacle.
> --- Scott Siebold <gamers@ameritech.net> wrote:
> The Russians developed an air dropable anti
PFM-1.
However, I don't doubt that Serb children do the same thing with green metal
balls dispensed by US cluster munitions. Kids in a war zone are pretty much
screwed no matter who's dropping what. They havn't got the common sense to not
put UXO in their mouths (of course neither do a lot of adults, apparently).
You make it
Firetruck Red, shaped like a V-1 rocket, and print
"DANGEROUS" in six-inch letters, and kids will still
mess with it.
> If I remember correctly the US scat mine is
True. All US scatmines have SD feature.
> At 3:01 AM -0700 10/7/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Not just kids, Adults too.
> > If I remember correctly the US scat mine is
Which is fine, but still begs the question of how dependable the
self-destruct mechanism is. 90%, 99%, 99,9% ? Multiply by the number of
scattered mines and see how many don't self-destruct.
Greetings Karl Heinz
> At 8:51 PM +0200 10/7/02, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
Not just mines, last I heard IPDMS rounds have enough of a failure rate on the
detonators that the zones that they've covered are considered danger areas.
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Not just mines, last I heard IPDMS rounds have
Can't say much more, but that statement is true. The failure rate is not 0%
and US operational maps in
Kosovo have big no-go areas marked where the USAF
dropped a LOT of cluster munitions.
> If I remember correctly the US scat mine is
I think you missed the point. The US scat mine was not developed to make a
location impassable but it was developed to slow an enemy down.
The idea was that as US forces were being attacked in waves a minefield could
be placed between waves which would delay and disrupt an attack. Since this
type of attack is of a very short duration the mines (majority) would be
destroyed after a reasonable time had passed. So: 1) Scat mines are rarely
used (expensive and takes space better suited to less exotic munitions). 2)
The mines are easily detected and destroyed (sitting on the surface and
destroyable by anyone with a gun or long pole) 3) The majority of the mines
will destroy themselves.
Of course if you are facing an enemy that is coming at you in multiple waves
that outnumber your forces then scat mines may be just what you need.