Militias and Rifles

10 posts ยท Jan 27 2000 to Jan 29 2000

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:16:01 -0500

Subject: Militias and Rifles

The quality of militia will be directly related to where they are from. If
they live in a nice safe enviroment or urban area (the police must protect me,
right?), they will have little knowledge or practice with weapons. If they
come form a rural area (it will take hours for the police to show up to deal
with the problem) with life threatening predators (as in crocodiles, lions,
bears, etc. deffinately not Aliens aka the movies), then they will use weapons
as a tool in
everyday life and be very proficient with them...  In my FT/DSII/Stellar
Conquest rules militia quality related to the habitability of the planet, the
more habitable, the lower the quality...

** Not solely. Training can make a difference as can how active they are. If
their militia frequently sends units to active duty, they'll be better. If
they spend a bunch of money training, they'll be better than they otherwise
would in urban/safe settings.

The US military is working on a "super weapon" again. It's as bad if not worse
than SPIW. Those troops better start doing a lot of push up, because a 15
pound weapon system with 5.56 assault rifle, 20 mm grenade launcher, and very
exotic
targeting computer/sight is coming...  I wonder what it is going to do
to all of those good shots withs experience on light weight rifles...

** The problem (IME) with the FN was it was heavy in a way that was
torque-y
on you as you stood there - the center of mass was not close enough in.
The OICW, though heavier than I'd want it, looks like (I don't know for
certain) it moves the mass back in close to the body where the arm muscles can
do the work without straining. It may be far more manageable than its mass
suggests. Or not. Time will tell.

From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@m...>

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:28:20 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Thomas.Barclay wrote:

> ** The problem (IME) with the FN was it was heavy in a way that was

The OICW is also there to replace the M4 (M16/203/IR sight) combo that
is quite expensive, thus it won't be an every trooper weapon. The 20mm, will
if it works right, be hell on troops in defilade and be a nice handy weapon
for anti armour.

From: Imre A. Szabo <ias@s...>

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:48:13 -0500

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> Thomas.Barclay wrote:

> ** Not solely. Training can make a difference as can how active they

I'm assuming militia is last minute conscripts and/or volunteers and/or
police, not reserves. There training will be a shadow of reservesists. How
many SWAT teams train on close assaulting tanks or what to do if you come
under artillary
fire...

> ** The problem (IME) with the FN was it was heavy in a way that was

I disagree. Your'e talking a 50% increase in mass. Even with better balance,
it is not going to be easy. In the bush without tansport, humping it will be a
%^#$^$%^&^. The good news is that combat tends to get the adrenaline
going...

From: Imre A. Szabo <ias@s...>

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:50:55 -0500

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> Ryan M Gill wrote:

> The OICW is also there to replace the M4 (M16/203/IR sight) combo that

According to a recent article I read, the military was talking about making it
standard equipment to all infantry. Whether they can afford to do this is
another matter.

From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@m...>

Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:53:21 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Imre A. Szabo wrote:

> I'm assuming militia is last minute conscripts and/or volunteers

Thats a question of tactics and equipment both, but the chechens seem to

be doing pretty damn well at it...

> I disagree. Your'e talking a 50% increase in mass. Even with better

Thing is, it removes the needed requirement for a few other bits of kit.

Mainly frag grenades, LAW 66's and the Nightvision gear. Not all troops will
have them, just the Grenadier Designate. And if the mission calls for not
having the 20mm part, you can attach the stock to the 5.56mm part and use just
that...

From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@m...>

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:37 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Imre A. Szabo wrote:

> According to a recent article I read, the military was talking about

The last thing I read in small arms review indicated it was going to be
special kit...herm....

From: Imre A. Szabo <ias@s...>

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:47:18 -0500

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> Ryan M Gill wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Imre A. Szabo wrote:

Chechen society has very little in comon with Russian Society and much less
with Western European or American Society. In Chechneya, brigandage is still
considered by that society as an acceptable means for making a living. The
population also has a very firm tie to the land. What this means that even
though some them do live in cities, they hunt, fish, and farm on the weekends.
This tends to make a much more resilient and determined population. It doesn't
mean they will when. What it means is that the average chechen soldier has a
higher combat value then the average Russian soldier.

> > I disagree. Your'e talking a 50% increase in mass. Even with

That 20mm grenade isn't going to penetrate nearly the ammount of armor as a
LAW 66. Also, the burst radius of the 20mm grenades is going to be much less
then traditional handgrenades. You aren't losing anything from the kit, only
reducing some types of ordance in favor of another. The U.S. Army might be
stupid enough to eliminate handgrenades, etc., but if they do, they'll wish
they hadn't.

From: Ryan Gill <rmgill@m...>

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 13:59:41 -0500 (EST)

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Imre A. Szabo wrote:

> That 20mm grenade isn't going to penetrate nearly the ammount of armor

You can't throw the hand grenade the same distance I can fire a 20mm. The
40mm, tends to detonate on the ground (as does the 20 mm) putting half its
fragments and energy into the ground. The 20mm will detonate at

the range the target is at and screw you of your cover.

The essential function of the sight is to aim for the target, select it with
the recticle, selecte a 20mm, fire. The 20mm will be set for the range of the
target and when it gets to that range, it will burst. The kill radius is
smaller than 40mm but is more accurate and effective. Or so the weapon
principle goes. I've been scanning ATK's web site ever month or so looking for
updates on the testing phases.

From: Los <los@c...>

Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:02:00 -0500

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> Ryan M Gill wrote:

> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Imre A. Szabo wrote:

This is a misunderstanding of how grenades are used. You can't lob a 20 mm or
40 mm launched from a rifle around a corner or roll it down a hole or cook it
off and toss hook it around a doorframe or arc it over a hedgerow where the
enemy is two meters away on the other side.(Or do a whole bunch of stuff.)
Rifle fired grenades and thrown grenades have two separate functions and are
not in competition with them. Both have advantages and disadvantages which are
covered by the other's strength. No one is talking about ever getting rid of
thrown grenades unless it's some geek in a lab. That doesn't mean a 20mm
grenade might not have some nice advantages over a 40 mm grenade.

Also the statement about how a 40 mm grenade detonating on the ground puts
half its fragments into the ground isn't quite correct. It is a principal of
explosives to follow the path of least resistance unless tamped. Having
observed numerous grenade throwing and launchings, in almost all terrain types
except maybe beach sand or snow, when a 40 mm hit the ground its explosive
power is directed out and up, which is why there's virtually no crater left by
the little buggers.

That's not to say that there isn't merit for a VT type grenade round (they
have one for the Mk19) Because lying flat on the ground is a good way to avoid
most lethal fragments unless a grenade lands right near you.

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:43:28 -0500

Subject: Re: Militias and Rifles

> This is a misunderstanding of how grenades are used. You can't

Wire the grenade to the doorframe and the pin to the door, for example. No
need to be there in person.

Of course, in 2187, the grenades may be something the size of a saucer. You
say to it "there's a tank over that way, go get it", while pointing with the
hand holding the grenade. Its inertial recorders note which direction you're
pointing it, and it dutifully heads off in that direction, gliding using its
ducted fan center. When it sees a tank, it goes and does something about it.