I was just speaking to a friend undergoing some Interrogator Training, and he
was describing to me the current State of The Art (well unclassified) in Mil
Interrogation. They call it 'the suit'.
Apparently, it is a big really thickly padded suit. The helm has bright white
light and white noise broadcast inside it. When wearing it, you can't feel
anything (nearly). No part of your flesh is able to touch or feel any other
part. When moved by your captors, you can't really feel it, you just feel a
force moving you rather than a defined push or grab. Apparently, you can't
sleep, can't hear anything but white noise, can't see anything but white
light. I think the longest he said that any of the students or real prisoners
his instructor had used this on in Desert Storm managed was 18 hours before
spilling his guts. No drugs. No Physical Torture. No real privation (they even
put a straw in from a camelpack so you can drink). Just an awful, mind numbing
sound and a light that cannot be ignored. You can't even whack yourself in the
head to feel something.
I think any proper future MI unit will have enhanced versions of this with
Grav Dampers so you can't even feel gravity and maybe even some type of
broadcaster that broadcasts mental static too. Enough to make you spill your
guts even faster than the average 8 hours this contraption takes.
Something to think about.....
/************************************************
> I think any proper future MI unit will have enhanced versions of this
And governements get to use this stuff. I think the rebels of the future are
doomed. Not exactly a cheerful thought. Old fashioned torture sounds more
reasonable than this stuff.
I wonder how little you would actually tell your troops with interrogation
techniques this effective. Only very high ranks would know the actual goal
of an operation. Bad for morale and co-ordination.
> /************************************************
In a message dated 10/14/1998 6:10:37 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca writes:
> I was just speaking to a friend undergoing some Interrogator
> the longest he said that any of the students or real prisoners his
> I think any proper future MI unit will have enhanced versions of this
> with Grav Dampers so you can't even feel gravity and maybe even some
> you spill your guts even faster than the average 8 hours this
I'd say having light shine in you face 24 hours a day and being deprived of
sleep counts as physical torture. BTW, Interrogator was one of my MOSs in the
US Army. I went through the school in 91-92, then served for a couple
of years in an interrogation company and I never heard of anything like that.
Interrogator veterans of Desert Storm in my unit apparently knew nothing about
it either and we certainly did not have such suits in our supply room. They
said it was enough just to ask the question and in 99% of the cases they would
get truthful answers. Shock of capture followed by meeting someone who offers
you a cigarette and some warm coffee is apparently enough to loosen almost
anybody's tongue, even "captured" US Army Rangers we interrogated during an
exercise.
Still, it's an interesting concept, if you get past the fact that it probably
violates international conventions on the use of torture.
[quoted original message omitted]
Niall spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> And governements get to use this stuff. I think the rebels of the
Ah yes, but it is humane (causes little lasting harm - I guess it
could drive you round the twist) suppossedly, fast, effective, and (to the
point) NOT banned by the Geneva Conventions as they stand today (according to
the Canadian Military anyway).
Sounds like some Conventions need updated.... not that anyone follows them
when the chips are down anyway....
> I wonder how little you would actually tell your troops with
Keep in mind, this is designed to break the sub 24 hour barrier. Lots of
times, if you can hold out for 24 hours, everything you knew is now
invalidated (units have moved, passwords and patrol scheds changed, etc). In
general, I don't think officers tell their troops that much anyway. Plus
troops who had to hold out for longer may have drug or chemical or hypnotic
training to resist such tortures more successfully.
Only very high ranks would know the actual goal
> of an operation. Bad for morale and co-ordination.
If you know what your goal is, and what those of a couple of units nearby are,
in many cases that would suffice. Not ideal, but it would suffice. Most Great
Generals tend to like to keep a trick or two up their sleeve anyway.
/************************************************
Glover, spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >> Apparently, it is a big really thickly padded suit. The helm has
Well, I know it was used (as I said) in Desert Storm at least once
and the Iraqis it was used on broke in the 6-12 hour range.
> I have to agree with Mike here. Sensory deprivation is considered a
Well apparently the interrogators that I'm talking about felt it was more
human than other methods, very effective, and ultimately not too harmful to
the victim. I would have agreed with you, but then why would they be teaching
this technique? If it is so effective, I guess that may be the argument for
it.
Although it is an effective means of conditioning it
> must be handled very carefully. The fact that someone "spills their
A
> subject blubbering and giving you anything he thinks might please you
Not necessarily. I think in this case, he just wants to talk to another human
being. And it doesn't (I'd assume over shorter exposures) leave the lasting
damage physical interrogation might.
Plus physical interrogation can bring out a 'you-them' mentality.
Like you said, you want them to cooperate.
Now some spy type works have suggested using multiple methods (normal
requests, then drug, then physical) and corroborating testimony. If you have a
cooperative subject, you still have to be skeptical of them telling you the
truth in areas that are hard to verify. You must watch for inconsistencies.
But yes, you do eventually get to a point with any interrogation where the
target tries to anticipate what you want to hear in order to end the
interrogation.
No, each individual has a character type
> that is susceptible to a specific series of interrogation methods and
And yet some individuals can sustain themselves with the 'grey man'
strategy... anyone having SERE or equivalent training, or some of the special
conditioning Intel operatives sometimes receive (on the civilian front
anyway), may last a lot longer in the
'conversational-approach' method than in the sensory deprivation
method which tends to be (I would guess) a great equalizer of men.
I also think it is well suited to the futuristic and none-to-nice
world of 2185..... where the Geneva Convention seems to be forgotten quite
regularly ("Damn, left my copy in my other uniform....").
> Sorry to say that I've worked with both US and UK interrogators and
Well, tried in Desert Storm, possibly other places, and people in the CF have
been trained on it. As to widescale deployments, I don't imagine so. It is
probably only used for important interrogations in active theatres.
> If anyone is really interested in reading about interrogation try a
The Germans had some really good interrogators. Of course, I may point out,
that depriving an indivdual of food, sleep, medical attention, etc. would
constitute a lower stage of this 'sensory deprivation' approach. Get someone
tired, bleary, not thinking clearly, and they may trip themselves up (used by
unethical police departments on uninformed citizens).
I wasn't speaking in favor of this technology except insofar as anything that
would save my squad mates lives while not being a true attrocity (and since
you recover quickly from this, I don't define this in quite that league) seems
to me to be something I'd want on my side in a Hot War. Fortunately, we seem
to be able to avoid these
things. But in the GZG universe, they come up a lot. As do rioter-cop
scenarios. I can see special police interrogation units using this type of
tech.
An interesting aside. David Feintuch wrote a series of depressing novels. One
of the neat components was Polygraph & Drug testing (P&D) which the Admiralty
used to get to the root of any court martial or military court issue. This was
used based on the Truth in Testimony Act. This had been passed on the "if you
are guilty, you can recant your testimony later, but it is admissible" idea
and the thought that the innocent have little to hide. Kind of 1984 ish. But
at least (in principle) it would mean more guilty men would pay for their
crimes and more truth (or perception anyway) would be known.
Tom
/************************************************
> Apparently, it is a big really thickly padded suit. The helm has
Sounds a lot like the holding cell in the Sci-fi film "Outland" where
the prisoner is placed in a vacuum suit in a cell with no gravity or
atmosphere. And to top it off they switch the lights off:)
I think the line that Sean Conery uses in the film is. "most people start to
go a little crazy at night when they can't feel the floor". I know what he
means.
> On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
wow. those guys are really starting to worry about Cyrix nicking their designs
...
Tom
ps sorry
> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Niall Gilsenan wrote:
whilst this could be bad for morale, mightn't it actually be good for
coordination? if 1st company is fighting some way from 3rd company, and you
need to redeploy 3rd company, wouldn't it help if 1st company didn't know
where 3rd company were supposed to be and so wouldn't be surprised when they
found they weren' there?
Tom
In a message dated 10/14/1998 11:25:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca writes:
> Well, I know it was used (as I said) in Desert Storm at least once
I think this must be some sort of an urban legend. US interrogation units in
the Gulf had Red Cross representatives present at the camps (at US request) to
forestall any Iraqi claims of inhumane treatment of Iraqi EPWs.
> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Niall Gilsenan wrote:
They wouldn't know not to shoot into that area. Friendly fire is more
irritating than enemy fire.
> On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Glover, Owen wrote:
> I have to agree with Mike here. Sensory deprivation is considered a
I'm a bit hesitant about the "no lasting effects" bit. You can kill a man
through simple lack of sleep, nevermind drive him crazy. People are
individuals and their tolerance to this kind of thing varies. Even with strict
limits for such methods, who's to say "just one more hour and he's finished"
mentality won't emerge under field conditions?
> The fact that someone "spills their guts" is
A
> subject blubbering and giving you anything he thinks might please you
I have to agree here. There is world of difference between getting someone to
tell the truth (and for the interrogator to accept that the truth may very
well be that prisoner knows nothing of value) and getting them to say what you
want them to say (which is what Spanish Inquisition excelled
at).
Just a couple thoughts on interrogation and stuff. Having been through High
Risk SERE (survival Evasion Resistance and Escape) school and the infamous
"RTL" (Resistance Training Laboratory), I thought I'd mention a few things on
the subject.
When you are dealing with front line units (grunts etc.)., these guys
invariably have little pertinent (mission breaking) vital information to cough
up. Whatever they know will be stale normally within 72 hours. Of course
capturing masses of prisoners is important for you to fill in the important
holes in you IPB (Intelligence Prep of the Battlefield) such as enemy units,
capability TOE, strength, composition and other anecdotal evidence. Or special
knowledge f key equipment like how crypto works or aviators etc. etc. You
usually are not going to find people roaming around the front that have war
winning intel (i.e. Gen. so and so personally planned Operation Harbinger and
knows all the details of The invasion of Rot Hafen but he was caught in a
fighter orbiting the planet!). Those that are usually fall under the heading
of High risk and I'll talk about them later. It's not expected for soldiers
are going to hold out under proper interrogation. That's why they're not given
vital intel. If someone important or something important (i.e. crypto being
the most important intel), falls into enemy hands. As soon as it's known,
whatever he knew is changed per SOP. i.e. if an SOI (Signal Operating
Instructions) comes up missing then a whole new alternate extract is issued
out.
It's not expected that these guys hold out nor are they given access to vital
information. That's why most armies only give little training in this regard,
mostly concerning how prisoners are handled at the front, (The 5 S) the Laws
of War, and a little about what to expect.
For operations orders, at least in the US army a vital part of the order which
comes right after the mission statement is the Commander's intent. It is
important to understand WHY you are conducting a certain mission. I don't mean
why as in to free the oppressed or some such bullshit but why as in: "The
reason you are taking Hill 219 is so we can interdict enemy movements on high
speed avenue of approach ALPHA on 1 km to the east."
This way when the company commander sees that Hill 219 does not for whatever
reason provide good fields of fire to AA Alpha, he can take the initiative and
move his unit so that he can accomplish that task. Without the why, then
commander (USSR is famous for this in WW2), would just sit their and let the
enemy escape because "Hey I was ordered to take this hill and I ain't moving
until someone tells me too!"
Now For the High risk individuals, (SF, certain pilots, intel people whatever)
it is understood that them falling into enemy hands can have an adverse
effect. This is why their knowledge is compartmentalized on a strict need to
know basis. I might have the highest security clearance in the Army, but when
we are preparing for an operation, I will not know anything about what other
teams or company's are doing. In fact during our isolation planning phase, we
are locked up under armed guard hence "isolation". This was learned the hard
way in Vietnam after a number of teams vanished without a trace after
insertion across the border. As soon as they started isolating them the number
dropped drastically.
Now in High Risk SERE. You learn about developing the time tested
tactic-(used forever)a of number of plausible cover stories. The
principle was illustrated very well in Bravo 20. Their top cover story wa that
they were a platoon of draftees dropped off in the desert without their NCOs
and officers to do a recon mission. That's why they didn't know anything.
Their deep cover story wa that they were a regular Army long range recon
patrol. They could even have had a deeper cover. once the enemy finds out you
are SF it truly is all over for you. These stories are coordinated, practiced
and planned for in isolation so everyone is on the same sheet of music. Let's
say they capture four of you. You might each have two top covers and a deep
cover. This way eventually the interrogators get to the deep cover, compare
notes and say "Hey I think we got it." All this is meant to keep whatever you
know under for about 72 hours.. By then you would probably have failed your
routine contact and your emergency contact and then HQ would send up the alarm
that the team is compromised and change look up what you know and then make
appropriate changes.
You learn this stuff in the training as well as all the latest interrogation
tactics, tap codes, and resistance methods. All you are trying to do is buy
time. It's the only school in the army where you can be physically beaten (I
lost a tooth). It's especially funny because only a few of the guys going
through this are SF the rest are pilots whom, shall we say are seldom endured
to hardship. I've seem some break down into a crying quivering mass the minute
someone laid a hand on you. And they do try all the stuff like singling out
favorites, concocting stories of traitors, having female interrogators comment
on the size of your shriveled genitalia, etc. etc. It only takes about ten
minutes until you realize that you really are in a prison camp. All of the
instructors undergo a huge amount of training, monitoring and psycho
profiling. You spend around three days in the clink (after a week long
survival and escape exercise). And the day you get out is the happiest day of
your life.
I learned one thing...
Don't get captured.