Just went to the mall with my son and bought some Matchbox(tm) cars. Now,
these are metal, fully painted and cost a buck each. This got me to wondering:
Why are gaming minis so expensive when they come unpainted and some even need
to be assembled? Also, was looking at MicroMachines(tm) and was wondering: Is
it cheaper to produce a mini in metal or plastic (I have bought the Wings of
Death(tm) set of 48 plastic minis for Silent Death(tm),
which cost $30 for 48 ships [$.63/ship])? I would be perfectly happy
with plastic minis, even if I had to paint them myself, if they were less
expensive. Could we get one of the mini manufacturers, or even Galoob to make
a good looking line of plastic generic (not a specific backgound) line of
ships?
Any thought on this?
From Chan
> Why are gaming minis so expensive when they come unpainted and
I gues it is a case of increased sales allowing the smaller profit per unit.
Also the mass production of Matchbox and the like, result in cheaper product
too. Plastic mini's can be really good (less weight in the carrycase too!).
Plastic would be easier to paint and modify (depending on the actual type of
plastic of course). Lots of good reasons to go plastic except from the
production side, I suppose most of the hobby suppliers are all geared up to
production in metal with plastic injection moulding needing a whole new
workshop.
Pity
> At 10:01 PM 8/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
Now,
> these are metal, fully painted and cost a buck each. This got me to
Simple economy of scale. The number of metal miniatures sold of ALL types is a
drop in the bucket (a very BIG bucket) compared to the number of Hot Wheels
cars sold.
> Also, was looking at MicroMachines(tm) and
Depends.
> I would be perfectly happy with
My understanding is that you can't get the same detail in plastic that you can
get in metal. The molds are different, too, and harder to use. If you are
going with small numbers, metal is cheaper. However, I think plastic molds
wear better and the raw materials are cheaper. For long runs of large numbers
of figures, plastic is cheaper.
Of course, I could be wrong on this and plastic is ALWAYS cheaper. Compare the
cost of a box of plastic 20mm WW2 figures (Airfix, ESCI, Revell, whatever) to
the equivalent number of metal miniatures.
> Could we get one of the mini manufacturers, or even Galoob to make
Sure, if you're willing to guarantee a huge number of sales. I keep thinking,
though, that some company is going to do this one day. I'd love to see the
looks on their faces when they realize their toy spaceship line has a heavy 21
to 35 year old demographic...
Apparently, it also costs a lot more to produce a mould for plastics. I know
the Evil Empire's (tm) explanation for not making a new Landraider mould (the
old one broke) was that it was going to cost them US$20,000 for a new one.
(w) Brendan.Robertson @ employment.gov.au (h) Denian @ Shepparton.net.au
'Neath Southern Skies The Oceanic Union lives!
> Why are gaming minis so expensive when they come unpainted and
> Apparently, it also costs a lot more to produce a mould for plastics.
I
> know the Evil Empire's (tm) explanation for not making a new Landraider
Yeah. Like that's a set-back for GW. All they'll do is charge, say,
$40U.S. for the new tank and make it essential for every army to have one. At
$40 each and the number of GW junkies out there, they'll make their $20 000
back several times over. I'd really like to see their profits. Stinkin'
capitalist pigs.
> Apparently, it also costs a lot more to produce a mould for plastics.
I
> know the Evil Empire's (tm) explanation for not making a new Landraider
Ah so it had nothing to do with starving the market before release of the new,
all improved super landraider that looks surprisingly like the one in the new
epic box set. Or am I just being cynical?
<Ah so it had nothing to do with starving the market before release of the
<new, all improved super landraider that looks surprisingly like the one in
<the new epic box set. Or am I just being cynical?
I think it has to do little with both...
CMC
> On Tue, Aug 5, 1997 at 11:02:51 PM, "ROBERTSON,Brendan" wrote:
> Apparently, it also costs a lot more to produce a mould for plastics.
I
> know the Evil Empire's (tm) explanation for not making a new
> for a new one.
Having talked with a considerable number of knowledgeable people about this
(GW employees, model builders with really espteric tastes that buy $75 kits,
people who cast their own things, etc.), and in the absence of any comments
from Mr.Tuffley, here is the picture that I have:
1) Plastic casting material is muuch cheaper than metal.
2) Plastic molds, on the other hand, are much much much much more expensive
than metal molds, so much so that I think the above quote of $20k for a new
mold may be an order of magnitude too small.
For this reason, you only seen plastic minis in boxed games or in bigger sets,
where they expect to sell a bazillion copies.
As far as the plastic detail versus metal detail, take a look at the plastic
terminators in the new version of _Space Hulk_ -- pretty damn
impressive.
I have no idea regardingthe costs/limits of resin or other materials.
> From Chris Weuve
> 1) Plastic casting material is muuch cheaper than metal.
Speaking as someone who got sucked into the wargaming hobby in general by
painting miniatures, I'd pay more for metal miniatures any day. They are
crisper, stronger, generally more defined than plastic molds. At least on a
smaller, 'individual figurine or ship scale'. Plus they feel a
lot better when actually moving around the board/table. They have a
whole range of tactile sensations, there's nothing like whacking a really
chunky/heavy dreadnought six inches n front of a squadron of frigates.
Whereas plastic feels a trifle... well weak. I just prefer lead based
miniatures, I'm not that keen on the new 'white metal' stuff, because it
seems a trifle brittle/hard. I'm not sure, I keep meaning to get into
full scale conversions etc. but my student budget is stopping me.:(
> As far as the plastic detail versus metal detail, take a look at the
Yes they are okay, but IMHO they're crap compared to the metal version, and to
top it off the Evil Empire is flogging them for almost the same price. That's
just f**ked. I buy a lot of minatures simply for
display purposes/ the pleasure of painting them, and I have yet to see a
plastic miniature that cuts the grade. However some of the resin ones that
Grendal (???) puts out are very nice, or the heartbreaker ones, but they're
generally largeish. I don't know if its because the manufacturers don't put
the effort in or what. I mean GW generally make the best miniatures: that's a
personal judgement, they make a lot of crap ones, but every now and then they
make a good one. However that's changing, has anyone else noticed a general
increase in the quality of miniatures? But I have yet to see them make a
plastic miniature that I would consider buying for anything other than cost
considerations. Or any other manufacturer either.
Just my two cents err sorry, bucks worth
> Apparently, it also costs a lot more to produce a mould for plastics.
I
> know the Evil Empire's (tm) explanation for not making a new
Yes, the cost of plastics is mostly in the mould making and set-up costs
-
as mentioned above, several tens of thousands of pounds/dollars for just
a single kit mould. To make this practical, you have to have a guaranteed
market for many thousands of a single sprue of figures/parts; GW can do
this thanks to their market share, and ICE, FASA etc. have tried on a small
scale (eg: the sprues of Silent Death ships, RL Centurion tanks, Battlemechs
etc.). Small companies like us at GZG couldn't even start to think about this
sort of investment in a single product.
As to the original question about Matchbox cars and other toys, remember that
most of these are produced in the Far East (at virtual slave labour rates),
and made in hundreds of thousands, or even millions. We produce at
most a few thousand of any one model over the life-span of a certain
item,
and each one is produced by a highly trained and (fairly!) well-paid
caster. The economics differ by several orders of magnitude. Think of a
bog-stock Ford against a hand-built sportscar....
> Yes, the cost of plastics is mostly in the mould making and set-up
Jon, what about the new wonder plastic mentioned in the last Ragnarok? The one
where you can use existing white metal moulds to produce plastic figures.
According to that little article its cheaper than existing plastics models.
Ral Partha bought the rights but I've heard nothing more about these plastics.
Did you ever consider it or is it a case of the volumes just not being right
for that kind of investment?
> As to the original question about Matchbox cars and other toys,
Buy a whip..That'd do the trick. No more uppity casters.
> Jon, what about the new wonder plastic mentioned in the last
There are a number of factors here; firstly, yes, Ral Partha is supposed to
have bought all the rights, presumably so they can use it and no-one
else. Any further info on this from anyone would be helpful! Secondly, the
actual cost of the metal is still only a (smallish) part of
the production cost of a miniature - the mouldmaking, casting labour
etc, all amount to a major part, which would be the same if using the
spin-cast
plastics. The other problem I can forsee is that if you get a miscast in the
plastic (as you inevitably do with metal, especially with fairly
complex and intricate figure poses as many of ours are - the sculptors
don't try to make it easy for the caster) then you have wasted that plastic.
Metal miscasts go straight back in the melting pot! I strongly suspect that
when everything is analysed, these new spincast plastics won't REALLY be much
(if any) cheaper than metal figures for the reasons above. Their only real
advantage will be for sale in areas where metal figs are undesirable for
whatever reasons (legal, age of customers
etc.).
[This is all IMHO, of course, and further information would always be
interesting...]
> As to the original question about Matchbox cars and other toys,
Dave, our caster, will see you about this (normally he has to pay good money
for that sort of thing.....)
:)
> There are a number of factors here; firstly, yes, Ral Partha is
I didn't think about the element of wastage. Its a long time since I
did any casting with good old Prince August moulds. Fixed costs
play the most important element in the final cost of a figure then.
> >
Anything to be helpful..Cheap rates too!
> At 22:18 09/08/97 +0000, you wrote:
> I didn't think about the element of wastage. Its a long time since I
When testing a new tool set for quality and placement of ejector pin points
(its still an art rather than a science) the 100 or so parts are reground. For
ease of testing 20% or less of new plastic is normally added. Cost of plastic
is never a concern as its far more expensive moving ejector pin points. Hope
this helps
Jon(T.C.)
Sprayforming Developments Ltd. [production tools]
made in
[prototype times]
'The future is now'
> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:01:50 -0400 (EDT)
> Just went to the mall with my son and bought some Matchbox(tm) cars.
Now,
> these are metal, fully painted and cost a buck each. This got me to
and
> was wondering: Is it cheaper to produce a mini in metal or plastic (I
Chan,
There is no comparing a mass market, made in China micromachine with an
essentially hand made game piece. The economies of scale available to Galoob
and other giants of the toy industry just simply dwarf the size of the entire
game market. But when you want that Orc or spaceship two years from now to
complete your collection the game company will have it, while Galoob and Toys
R Us will have moved on to the next hot toy release. By the way, how do you
like the complete ignorance of scale in the micromachines? Look, you're
comparing apples and oranges here. The fact that micromachines can be game
pieces began as an ACCIDENT, now that they've caught on to their use in games
they are indeed attempting to scale some of their products for use in games.
But the second an item's sales numbers drop it's gone.
Missed the initial post here...
> > From: ChanFaunce@aol.com
Now,
> > these are metal, fully painted and cost a buck each. This got me to
Because they are made in small production runs instead of huge ones, and
the companies have to pay US or UK wages instead of (South-)East Asian,
basically.
> > Also, was looking at MicroMachines(tm) and
Wellll... I use most of the Wings of Death models as destroyers and light
cruisers in Full Thrust, so $.63/ship isn't that bad a deal for me
(since
most similarly sized ships otherwise cost some $2-3 or more each when
cast in metal!). The Wings of Death plastic material is fairly easy to
convert,
too - much easier to work with than the new lead-free white-metal far
too many figure manufacturers use, but not as easy as lead.
Later,