Merc Guild - Not Really

> At 06:46 PM 1/6/02 -0500, you wrote:

What does any of this have to do with GZG games?

> At 06:46 PM 1/6/02 -0500, you wrote:

Ndege asked:
> What does any of this have to do with GZG games?

Given that I'm hammering together a TOE for the IF, it means I shouldn't
borrow it from the Syrian army, if I expect to win occasionally. Adrian and
TomB are reviewing (ie "correcting the obvious mistakes in") my version and
it'll be available at stargrunt.ca sometime soon.

On Sun, 06 Jan 2002 16:58:04 -0800 Diamond <nezach@earthlink.net>
writes:
> At 06:46 PM 1/6/02 -0500, you wrote:

Well, there are at least two Canon Arab/Islamic powers - The IF and The
SK - Plus the Turks (Yes, to a much lesser degree - I have read about
their skill in Korea) that either carry the past practices forward or have
'solved the problems' that have been their fate since at least the 1900's.

Although IIRC the Egyptians fought well against the Brits around mid to
late 1800's - forget what war, I'll have to look it up.  European
trained and equipped, willing to fight but defeated in part to bad officers
and in part a case of "...Yes, I taught you all you know but not all 'I'
know..." and part insufficient infrastructure.

In the Tuffleyverse I assume that they have overcome illiteracy (enough,) lack
of training (enough,) and rotten doctrine (enough,) to be second or third tier
players in the 'Game of Star Empires' in the games [FT, DS2, SG2]. I mean if
the IC can do it with the (form or lack of a) government
given then why not the Islamic/Arab powers?  We need to keep 'current
real world Arab' and 'GZG future Arab' nations as separate. Ditto the Thousand
Nations and my NPC from "Native American" cultures today. And also the PRC and
the PHR of my little block of insanity...

And OT *and just to push John A's buttons*  <grin> - while I haven't
read all of Clancy's books I did note that the only 'good guy'
Arabs/Islamicists seem to be the mole/assassin who tries to off Ryan and
some 'enlightened royalty' in the books... So Atkinson and Clancy agree?

Stereotypes usually have some experiential seed of truth in the experience of
the holder of the stereotype. It's frequently the exception that becomes the
perceived norm...

Gracias,

> Glenn M Wilson wrote:

> Well, there are at least two Canon Arab/Islamic powers - The IF and The

Just a note on the Turks  -- Turks are not Arabs, and while they are
Muslims, modern Turkey is a secular state.

(Yes, to a much lesser degree - I have read about
> their skill in Korea)

Don Maddox sent me a URL for an article written by someone in a western
military who encountered Turks as part of the UN forces in the Balkans, and
spoke quite highly of the professionalism of the Turkish unit.

that either carry the past practices

An interesting book, translated from Turkish to English, about the Army is
"The Iron Shirts", I forget the author. The Turkish army ingrains deeply in
it's officer corps a sense of professionalism and loyalty to democracy.

Attaturk, who founded toe republic and the modern army, was staunchly
anti-communist and equally opposed to Islmaic theocracy.

> In the Tuffleyverse I assume that they have overcome illiteracy

If the Turks continue the professionalist attitude, they may be, though
non-canon, equal to the task of standing up to geographically larger
powers such as the IF ans FSE.

I mean if the IC can do it with the (form or lack of a) government
> given then why not the Islamic/Arab powers? We need to keep 'current

Depends on the source of the stereotype... "Perception" is a more commonly
operative term than Experience regarding stereotypes. Mr.Atkinson may have a
notion of what Arabs or Zulus or Martians are like from his own experience,
but I may have one based solely on what he has told me. And his observation
may in turn be influenced by his own preferences and biases.

And when talking about an entire population, or the individuals within it,
there's always the danger of averages. Certain individuals within a group are
going to be better or worse than the perceived norm for that group, and our
perception of the norm is based on the individuals we encounter. In the end,
the phrase "I could be wrong" is a handy one for ALL of us to retain within
our vocabulary.

On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:25:40 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
> <bbilderback@hotmail.com> writes:

True and if I implied they were it was unintentional. But the religion of
choice is till Islam.

> (Yes, to a much lesser degree - I have read about

I have heard second hand that they stress professionalism and
non-political armies more then most of the third world.

> that either carry the past practices

Bet he is unpopular in certain circles today.

> In the Tuffleyverse I assume that they have overcome illiteracy

That is what it comes down to in the game I think - Despite the degree
of truth in "...Quantity has a certain quality of it's own..." a well trained
force beats a poorly trained force (all other things being equal
- which they seldom are) 99% of the time.

> I mean if the IC can do it with the (form or lack of a) government

Again I want to point out the obvious - this is in the *F*u*t*u*r*e*
(copyrighted) and a lot has changed between then and 'now-to-be'...

Gracias,

On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:25:40 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
<bbilderback@hotmail.com> <snip>
> Depends on the source of the stereotype... "Perception" is a more

And on that last sentence it would be a good palce to drop any on list
discussion of "All Arab tankers" IMO.

So I will.

Gracias,

> Glenn M Wilson wrote:

> >Just a note on the Turks -- Turks are not Arabs, and while they are

So to speak. While in Istanbul, I saw women in traditional Muslim covering
chatting with their miniskirt-clad girlfriends.  Quite an odd mix.
Turkey's Muslim the way America's Christian, or Mwxico's Catholic.

> >Don Maddox sent me a URL for an article written by someone in a

Turkey's First and second and third world all rolled into one, and they're
trying to improve.  As for the professionalism and non-political stance
of the Turkish army, that doesn't mean it doesn't ever step into political
debates. but oddly enough, they seem more intent on making sure no political
party, ESPECIALLY not a fundamentalist muslim one, takes over power, than they
are in becoming the power themselves. Almost a bening dictatorship

that only exerts itself when some other form of dictatorship threatens.

> >An interesting book, translated from Turkish to English, about the

In some, but those circles would not include the Army or the general public,
both of whom revere him - remember, Attaturk wasn't his name, it was a
title
given him by the Turks - "Father of the Turks."   His image is
everywhere. I'd compare it to Lenin in the former USSR, but the people
actually like it,
and most have his picture in their homes - more like Kennedy in Irish
Catholic American homes.

> Again I want to point out the obvious - this is in the *F*u*t*u*r*e*

Granted

> > >Don Maddox sent me a URL for an article written by someone in a

Ahem...

Pardon me if I am about to voice an 'Atkinsonism' <wf>

It was also the Turkish army under Attaturk (sp?) that was responsible for the
Armenian Genocide...

David Rodemaker Wrote

> Ahem...

And which army can you list that's never been guilty of any atrocity? Is the
US Army no longer considered professional because of MY Lai or Wounded Knee? I
doubt you'd go that far. I never claimed they were perfect, or

innocent. But they are a modern army with modern equipment, and modern
training, and they do try to maintain a high degree of professionalism. Add to
this the "Future Fiction" factor Mr.Wilson mentions, and it's well within the
realm of realism to suggest a future Turksih army that could hold it's own and
not be considered barbarians.

> --- David Rodemaker <dar@horusinc.com> wrote:

> It was also the Turkish army under Attaturk (sp?)

And massacred the last of the Anatolian Greeks excepting a tiny community in
Constantinople (now at about 5,000).

Let's just say that no matter how "secular" the Turks get, they will still
wage genocidal campaigns of
extermination against non-Turks whenever they can get
away with it. Just ask the Kurds. (Or Hungarians, or Bulgarians, or Serbs, or
Croats, or Montenegrins, or Greeks, or...) If people are massacred in the name
of secular Turkish nationalism, it doesn't make it an better than if they are
massacred in the name of religious Islamic intolerance.

> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:

> And which army can you list that's never been guilty

Uh, We court-martialled Calley and broke him from the
service. Even sent him to prison for a time. Attaturk and the rest of the
Turkish reigime at that time was never brought to trial for the atrocities of
the Armenian genocide and to this day the Turkish government denies that the
genocide occoured.

Wounded Knee was over-enthusiastic militia.  Again,
the Armenian genocide was the deliberate policy of an entire nation in which
regular military forces were deployed in combat operations against civillians
who were until that time, citizens of Turkey.

> John Atkinson wrote:

> Let's just say that no matter how "secular" the Turks

Relations between the Turks and the Kurds have actually improved recently.
Turkey, like most modern states, does have skeletons in it's closet. But it
can be hoped that thingsa are changing.

(Or Hungarians, or
> Bulgarians, or Serbs, or Croats, or Montenegrins, or

Again, true, but the same could be said of any other time in history when one
group encounters another, and one of the two suffers. But how ardently do we
cling to judgement based on the past, and how much credit do we give
for improvements made in the present/future?  If we judge everyone on
the past, we can justify punishing any group that has in thew past been the
oppressor, and we become just as oppressive ourselves.

> John Atkinson wrote:

Which is sad, but not uncorrectable. Many of the Turks I met expressed great
remorse for many of the past actions of their people.

> Wounded Knee was over-enthusiastic militia. Again,

Deliberate policy of an entire nation - like the internment of Japanese
Americans?  Like the distribution of Smallpox-infested blankets to
Indians? Like Slavery? We have no right to ride any high horse when it comes
to mistreatment of ethnic groups. Things have been worse other places, and can
and hopefully are getting better in Turkey.

> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Turkey, like most modern states, does have skeletons

Which is a somewhat different song than the pygeric to Attaturk that was being
sung...

> suffers. But how ardently

Here's one key determinant for me.

The Germans were genocidal lunatics under Hitler. However, the German people
admitted and still admit that the atrocities occoured, and that the atrocities
were wrong. Hitler is looked at as an evil madman by the vast majority of
Germans.

The Turks were genocidal lunatics under Attaturk. They refuse to admit that
they committed atrocities, or justify it with racist accusations against the
Armenians and Greeks. Attaturk is venerated as a hero.

Now, which nation has changed its spots and is unlikely to engage in such
behavior in the future?

From: John Atkinson

> Now, which nation has changed its spots and is

All of them, sooner or later. Bear in mind this is 200 years in the future
we're talking about.

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

Human nature is fundamentally flawed, and more or less unchangable. People
don't get better. That's the only constant in all of history.

> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >the Armenian genocide and to this day the Turkish

Funny--you'd think in a modern, secular, democratic
nation that if the majority of the people held a sentiment, it would be
reflected by their politicians.

> Deliberate policy of an entire nation - like the

Not a single Japanese-American starved to death, died
of exposure, or watched their children bayonetted by US soldiers.

Undoubtedly the mass internment of Japanese-Americans
was an overreaction. Some of them should have been interned. The problem was
sorting these out.

Again, the US government admitted they did wrong, the US has apologized, and
paid reperations to those interned or their next of kin.

When is Turkey going to do so?

> Like the distribution of Smallpox-infested blankets

Every time I ask for a source on this piece of hoary liberal propaganda, the
only one anyone can every provide is a single instance of a BRITISH Major
General ordering this done.

Not something you can blame the US for.

> Like Slavery?

ROFL! An apologist for the TURK? Accusing the US on our SLAVERY policy?

You're either very, very stupid, or very, very ignorant.

Let's see.

Turkish slavery originated in the prehistory of the Turkish people and was
finally abolished when? Long after the US gave it up. US citizens held slaves
for a grand total of 220 years.

Turks enslaved the children of their own subjects with the express intent of
sexually abusing them.

If you really want to compare the two systems of slavery, we can. But that's a
long, long discussion,
and better done off-list.

The Turks and their apologists are cordially invited to attempt carnal
relations with swine before they come crying to me about the immorality of the
US slave trade.

G'day,

> Human nature is fundamentally flawed, and more or less

This is a good point John, and its why EVERY single nation on Earth has
atrocities in their history (and probably in their collective future
unfortunately). I don't mind drawing parallels between modern/past
events and things that may occur in the GZGverse as its the only thing we've
got to draw from (and its what marks out good scifi usually) and that's why
I'd hate to see a blanket ban on linking modern events, traits or behaviours
and the GZGverse. However, I think characterising entire nations as "we'd
never do that except if we were over enthusiastic militia" or "they all suck
to a man" is as foolish as saying entire planets will always be desert or
water or garden like or that all of an alien species will be identical clones
<unless of course they really are clones;)>. The GZGverse should be vibrant
in the fact it is a mosaic not blanket 2-dimensional characterisations.

In all, I'd hate for the creativity, imagination, hard work and good ideas of
any of the list members' submissions to be detracted from or overwhelmed by
less savoury contributions that are making this list a far less pleasant or
interesting forum to participate in.

[quoted original message omitted]

> Beth.Fulton Wrote:

> G'day,

God, I love how polite that always strikes me. Kinda disarms me regardless of
the rest of the message.

> > Human nature is fundamentally flawed, and more or less

Well put, Beth.  I  regret anyone considered me Stupid or Ignorant - my
intent was not to critique American policy, it was to point out that no
coulture or people is above committing shameful acts. But other cultures have
repented and made good, even after long years of denial, and I'm just naive
enough to believe it can happen again in the future.

Since I believe Beth and Karl's comments put a good final point to the
discussion, I will refrain from further comment, and particularly refuse to
engage in personal attacks.

.... rummaging through brain for new subject material....

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:21:21 -0800 (PST) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> Wounded Knee was over-enthusiastic militia. Again,

John, this seems to be off topic material. Some of my family would question
the lack of genocidal intent (yes, I am referring to conscious genocide
practices) in the settling of the US.

And that is truly off topic.

And my Mother's people include some "Conquistador wannabes..." so I speak not
from a position of moral superiority but with a consciousness that all groups
have some of that 'fallen nature' as we Presbyterians like to call it lurking
in the best of us.

My father always took the stance (he was a Cherokee mix) that no matter who
started it at various times all sides practiced it to their moral decay.

Even in the GZG time line we have massacres recorded.

Gracias,

On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:15:42 -0800 "Brian Bilderback"
<bbilderback@hotmail.com> <snip>
> And which army can you list that's never been guilty of any atrocity?

Just dawned on me - along with no 'good' guys there are no incompetent
armies. Some less skilled, some logistically challenged, some ideologically or
doctrinally challenged but no true incompetent armies. Indeed some are better
trained or equipped then others but even the marginal ones have a minimal
competence.

Gracias,

Glenn muttered:
> Just dawned on me - along with no 'good' guys there are no incompetent

"Just incompetent players", eh?   :-)

There are at least a few incompetent armies in the GZGverse, they just don't
make the news. I'd hate for anyone to assault New Los Angeles because the
most organized fighting force there is a batch of part-time wanna-be
hidalgos with swords and handmade mail (who spend much more time bickering
about precedence, who's sleeping with whom, and the authenticity of the wine,
than they do practicing maneuvering in formation).

Fortunately some of the more strategically important locations (Reynolds
Consortium, Han Bank, Imperial Tactical Technologies, etc) employ
professionals and/or drill their militias with a bit more modern
equipment.

> Just dawned on me - along with no 'good' guys there are no incompetent

A very interesting question at that...

Does anyone have a TOE/OrBat that includes crummy troops? That isn't the
(what seems to be) militia or super-green forces?

In my own 'universe' (an unholy amagalmation based on Traveller) things range
from the Elites of the Imperial Cadre and Marine Commando to the general
Imperial Army regulars. I tend to reserve the Poor troops as being independant
Planetary armies.

I have also labeled some Imperial Army troops as poor merely because thier
'ultimate' CO's (Field Grades) were so incompentent that it grossly affected
their performance. Individual commanders on the field were good to excellent
so it made for an interesting mixture of effects.

> --- David Rodemaker <dar@horusinc.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have a TOE/OrBat that includes crummy

Oh, yeah.

I've got Free Ukrainian troops that have really good infantry (driving really
bad carriers) and crummy tank units.

I've got New Sicilians who are very, very effective under the right
circumstances against the right opponents, but have serious flaws (lack of
supporting arms, lack of ECM, etc).

I've got Serbian/Croatian orbats which are about 1
step removed from bandits.

Oh, and I put together a complete IFed MTOE which
ranges from good troops (Zanj, Ghulams--respectively
Sudanese and Turkish mercenaries) to really bad ones (Ghazis) with every
gradiation inbetween.

From: "Brian Bilderback" <bbilderback@hotmail.com>

> .... rummaging through brain for new subject material....

That's twice. Copyright Violation :-)