I fear I'm opening a can of worms again... take this as my opinion only.
> Ãrjan writes:
Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. And, IMHO, the simplest possible
line is often the best.
If you do allow pre-measurement, exactly what can I pre-measure?
When can I measure?
Can I pre-measure distances to all ships?
Can I measure angles? How about to arbitrary spots on the table? Can I measure
prior to movement?
If not, how would you stop me from pre-pre-measuring movement during
previous fire phase? Can I place measurement markers on the table? Can I write
down the measurements I take? Can I use graph paper? How about a computer? Can
I bring my own record sheets? Can I bring my own dice?
If I am out there to WIN the tournament, would it not give me at least *some*
edge to know all the measurements (at least mental assurance if nothing of
real substance)? Thus, why would I NOT measure everything I'm allowed to? To
give my opponents a break? ha ha ha...
Why do you think ping pong players have rules about what color shirt they can
wear? Because someone WILL try to take any and every advantage they can.
As nearly always, it's a question of drawing the line somewhere. I personally
would prefer to err on the side of playability.
(Another good way is to use a chess clock or timed turns -- but this
penalizes beginning/clumsy players more, and quite frankly, FT can't
afford to alienate new players)
G'day Mikko,
> I fear I'm opening a can of worms again... take this as my opinion
We have wildly differing opinions it seems;)
> Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. And, IMHO, the simplest
Very true, but just to give you the other side of the coin...
> If you do allow pre-measurement, exactly what can I pre-measure?
At our house, any time you like;)
> Can I pre-measure distances to all ships?
Yep, if it takes your fancy, though we usually just measure to the ones we
think we have a chance of being in range of;)
> Can I measure angles?
We've often done that to check you're in arc if its a close one.
> How about to arbitrary spots on the table?
If you want to - your talking to an SM player so that's not an unusual
thing to do;)
> Can I measure prior to movement?
Yep
> Can I place measurement markers on the table?
As in if I know you're current speed can I drop a chit at where that would put
you? Then yep you can if you play with us (cones of probability as to where
you're going to end up are a common sight on our table).
> Can I write down the measurements I take?
If you want.
> Can I use graph paper?
If you want.
> How about a computer?
Not that that's why its there, but ours is RIGHT beside the gaming
table..... ;)
> Can I bring my own record sheets?
Yep it'll save me photocopying until the cows come home, so long as the
start/end and orders are clear to everybody (this can be a bummer if
you've got hand writing like mine means I've got to be REAL neat when I play).
> Can I bring my own dice?
Everybody usually does.
Now having said all that, we only play at home/at the club, but I really
can't see why most if not all of these couldn't apply in a tournament too.
However, I'm probably missing something obvious so don't feel backward in
telling me what it is - like any of you need any encouragement ;)
> If I am out there to WIN the tournament, would it not give me at least
Only if you're the only guy doing it, but if everyone's allowed to
pre-measure where's the problem?
> As nearly always, it's a question of drawing the line somewhere. I
I'm guessing from that you think pre-measuring would way slow the game?
In our experience it doesn't, then again we use chits to mark where we think
you're going to end up and only jot down the odd point, maybe some comment as
to the volume of time spent on copious detail vs quick notes or belting
x,y and speeds into a preset-up spreadsheet would be appropriate.
Cheers
Beth
> >Can I pre-measure distances to all ships?
Funny this because despite the technology involved, myself and the people I
game with
normally never pre-measure anything ever. We leave it all to guess work.
Means we sort of end up using sci-fi battleships like Spanish galleons
:)
Mind you thinking about it you could always make it a game issue. How about
fire controls are the same as DSII where you buy Basic/Enhanced/Superior
Basic lets you pre-measure one target, Enhanced 2 targets, Superior 3
targets.
Or to keep it even more simple how about sacrificing a fire control to
allow pre-measuring.
> >Can I measure angles?
I have an fire arc template which I printed onto a tranparent film. When any
ship wants to fire it can be rested on top of the model to see exactly who's
in what fire arc. I've never had a problem over fire arcs.
Just to add my 2Cents worth....having started in WRG Ancients, I've had some
REALLY bad experiences with opponents doing this; but the problem was not
the pre-measuring, it was in the context they did it. Personally what
really irks is people who measure and then move to NOT quite one of your
effective ranges but just within an advantageous range to them!I have no
problem with someone measuring to see which taret is closest etc; as someone
has
mentioned; in a Sci-Fi setting your forces will have access to
sophisticated targetting capabilities. I guess though it still all comes down
to what is accepted practice in your gaming group. Competitions tend to be all
out "competitive" so human nature will out.
Cheers,
Owen G
> -----Original Message-----
> If you do allow pre-measurement, exactly what can I pre-measure?
[here come the scissors]
I think that all of these questions miss the point to a certain extent.
In competitive games and tourneys in which I've played, no
pre-measurement
was allowed. That's not to say that it will always be thus, but I think that
there's a very good reason for it.
We're (and I think I can speak for the group here) out to have fun, not to
become obsessive-compulsive about something that's supposed to help you
relax.
Sure, if the group agrees, you can measure till the cows come home. However,
I'm just interested in playing a game, having fun, and seeing
everyone else's cool paint jobs ;-)
Thus, personally, I don't care to pre-measure for combat or movement.
I'd rather put my Mk. I eyeball to the test and simply PLAY.
On 30-May-00 at 10:23, Sean Bayan Schoonmaker (s_schoon@pacbell.net)
wrote:
> Thus, personally, I don't care to pre-measure for combat or movement.
I'd
> rather put my Mk. I eyeball to the test and simply PLAY.
Not that this is directed at anyone in particular, but have you noticed
that the people who are the most against pre-measurement often happen
to be the same ones who have no problems eyeballing distances? To a new
wargamer the feeling is not only are they at a tactical disadvantage but they
are also at a severe "calibrated eyeball" disadvantage also.
If you do allow pre-measurement, exactly what can I pre-measure?
[Bri] Anything.
When can I measure?
[Bri] I usually allow any measurement during the write orders phase. But
only allow a limited amount of time to write orders. During the
Fighter/Missile phase, I allow measurement but only from the starting
point of the fighter group(s) that a player controls. During Ship movement
from the starting point of a ship movement, but not from the end point of ship
movement. Combat Phase, Distance between all ships may be measured, but the
time to fire a ship is limited (if you want PBS for this, sensor technology
allows for very exacting measurement of distances, but the amount of time to
choose which one and press the fire button is still limited).
Can I pre-measure distances to all ships?
[Bri] Yes, but see notes above about a limited time to fire a ship.
Can I measure angles?
[Bri] Yes.
How about to arbitrary spots on the table?
[Bri] Yes. Required for Salvo Missiles.
Can I measure prior to movement?
[Bri] Yes
If not, how would you stop me from pre-pre-measuring movement during
previous fire phase?
Can I place measurement markers on the table?
[Bri] Until the next turn phase.
Can I write down the measurements I take?
[Bri] Yes, but see notes about limited time.
Can I use graph paper?
[Bri] Yes, but discouraged.
How about a computer?
[Bri] Yes, but discouraged.
Can I bring my own record sheets?
[Bri] Depends on the type of game. Most scenarios will provide ship
designs
and sheets. A lot of one-offs are set "bring x points of ships", so
require a person to bring a record sheet.
Can I bring my own dice?
[Bri] Yes. But must allow other player to use them on request
(discourages loaded dice).
When are targets declared?
[Bri] Each ship must declare targets and the weapons used before rolling
for
damage. (Avoids the "gee, I did a lot with the P-Torp, I bet I could
finish
him if I use the Class-2s on him rather than on the other ship"
How much time do you allow for an action?
[Bri] This is somewhat fuzzy (variable). If playing with squadrons or
fleets
(4+ ships per player), I usually give about 30 seconds per ship a player
controls + 30 seconds per player in the game for orders. Take a typical
example: 4 players; each player has 5 ships; the orders phase time limit is
4.5 minutes (this is total not per player as most of this can be done by all
players at the same time). Fighter/missile launch should be only long
enough
to move the miniatures/counter. PDS/Fighter/Missile fire should take 30
seconds per figheter group. Pre-combat measurement should be the same as
the time limit for orders (in the example 4.5 minutes). Fire for each ship
should be less than 30 seconds per ship per target (if a ship has 2 FCS and
targets 2 ships give the player 60 seconds for that ship to fire) and add 10
seconds per threshold check the target makes. Cleanup (removing miniatures and
counters) and repair rolls should take 30 seconds per ship. Again, these are
somewhat flexible and require a judge to indicate when time is up.
On a one-off with no judge, it is much harder (or players must be more
flexible).
My answers marked by [Bri].
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/ft/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> Well, you have to draw the line somewhere. And, IMHO, the simplest
[snip]
> --
> Roger Books wrote:
> Thus, personally, I don't care to pre-measure for combat or
And the opposite holds true as well: those who are for pre-measurement
are usually either new players (who haven't yet calibrated their Mk Is
properly) or who have rather poor eyesight to begin with. Like me, who have
only recently stopped wearing eye patches after extensive eye surgery, but
still see two pictures of everything (neither eye has
healed completely yet) - with each eye, and when I'm sober. If I use
both eyes at once, I see three pictures of everything. When I'm drunk, I see
at least four of everything.
Schoon and Mikko, if either of you ever fight me IRL and allow no
pre-measurement, I would kindly ask you to wear a blindfold during the
entire battle. Or you can borrow my pre-surgery glasses - apart from
the headache most people get from wearing my old glasses for a while the
effect is pretty much the same <g>
(BTW, Mikko - the above is *not* a joke. If I get time to go to RopeCon
this summer - not that it seems likely, given my current schedule :-( -
I'll bring my old glasses for you.)
Later,
> Not that this is directed at anyone in particular, but have you noticed
This is a fair criticism, and I'd be for letting new players measure till they
got the knack of it. I'm all for stacking the odds in their favor, because
sometimes they don't come back to a game they loose on the first go.
> Schoon and Mikko, if either of you ever fight me IRL and allow no
OK, It seems that my point is being misunderstood - or perhaps I didn't
state it quite clearly enough.
Play the game. Measure or don't measure; just don't get all wrapped aroung the
axle about it. As long as everyone's having fun, who cares?
Schoon
As the person who wrote the original Tourney rules that included the clause
against premeasuring, I better comment.
At the time I initially wrote the rules 3+ years ago, my understanding
was
that for most miniatures games, pre-measuring was not allowed, so I
included this rule. It was after this that this topic first came up on this
list.
In the 2 tourneys that have been held at GenCon, this rule has not been a
problem. I have seen players pre-measure and no one has said anything.
Overall I do see it more as a guideline to keep things flowing so the game
does not bog down since each game match needs to be finished in less than 2
hours.
My personal feelings are mixed. Sure the tech should be there for starships to
know exactly how far away other ships are and where they probably will be next
turn, but then there is the fog of battle where even the most simple things
can be missed and I like the uncertainty of declaring fire before measuring.
So if the rule is questioned at this year's tourney, I will probably reply
that the no-premeasuring is a guideline to speed up the game, though if
it
is OK with your opponent you can pre-measure if it does not delay the
game.
On Tue, 30 May 2000 17:23:16 +1000, Beth Fulton
<beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> wrote:
> >I fear I'm opening a can of worms again... take this as my opinion
I happen to agree with Beth. The tournament rules prevent pre-measuring
but only because we have a limited amount of time to get a limited number of
games in. Some players will slow down the game checking EVERYTHING, even
something that isn't in range.
This was thrashed out ages ago on rec.games.miniatures.historical. It's pretty
close to a Holy War. Those who like pre-measuring point out that
estimating distances is a skill that some players are better at than others
but has nothing to do with their tactical ability. Those who dislike
pre-measuring
point out the needless measuring for minimum/maximum effect that some
people do.
On one side, you have some people who will lose out in games because they have
poor depth of field vision (it happens) or will win because they happen to
wear check shirts with a 1" grid (seen it happen!). On the other side, you
have people moving figures to JUST outside of someone's close range band, or
JUST within a certain terrain type, or what not, and you have people taking up
half the game measuring for no reason.
I find that FT isn't bad in this regard. You have to write down your movement
orders. Once moved, I have no problem allowing pre-measuring before
firing. I
find it odd that sci-fi vessels wouldn't be able to judge if a target is
within optimum range of a certain weapon type.
Personally, I hope Jon keeps this vague. I like the idea that I can choose
pre-measuring when a lot of people prefer NOT to allow pre-measuring.
But there is no right way or wrong way of doing it, just the way that players
want to play...
On Tue, 30 May 2000 07:20:56 -0700, Sean Bayan Schoonmaker
> <s_schoon@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Sure, if the group agrees, you can measure till the cows come home.
I'd
> rather put my Mk. I eyeball to the test and simply PLAY.
Great sentiment, Sean. This is why while I prefer pre-measuring, I'm not
absolute about it. The idea is to have fun. If your group finds it slows the
pace too much, outlaw it. If your group happens to liek the idea of
pre-measuring it, allow it. Just have fun...
<mutter> Ok, lets see if it gets through this time </mutter>
Hello,
I've a horrible feeling that I might have sparked this whole thing off
with a question I asked Paul :-)
But anyway, I've had a mad burst on inspiration cross referencing the
thread on pre-measuring (especially a message which I _cant find now_
that someone posted about enhanced or superior fire con systems allowing some
pre measuring or something) with the earlier threads on sensor systems:
Basic Sensors - you can't pre measure
Enhanced Sensors - you can pre measure, but only from ships with the
enhanced sensor systems - but not to ships protected by an ECM or area
ECM system
Superior System - you can pre measure, even to ECM protected ships, but
only from the ship with the superior sensor system
Hmm.. maybe a bit absolute?
AWACs fighter - as sensor systems, except that you can measure from the
ship that launched the fighter to a target within 12MU of the fighter, say.
Any thoughts?