Andy spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Historically, would another unit take over this spot? I don't know,
In real life, I'd guess your Platoon Sgt would step up to the mike. If he was
DOA, your senior surviving Sgt. Failing that, your senior corporal.
> Maybe something like this: After loss of a leader unit (Routed or
How would such a unit react to close assault, IYO?
> Is this reasonable?
Next comment: If you're doing this, use the rules on the unofficial SG2 web
page for leader replacement. They make good sense.
Tom.
/************************************************
> In message <199803172338.SAA00096@icx.net>, Thomas Barclay writes:
Would these typically be in different squads?
> > Maybe something like this: After loss of a leader unit (Routed or
How about this: When a command squad for a unit is routed or destroyed, that
unit must make an immediate Confidence Test at TL 3.
When a command squad is routed or destroyed, the units it commanded are
considered leaderless. Leaderless units are considered to be at broken morale
(if they were not routed) for all purposes until command is reestablished. A
unit may attempt to move normally without command being established by passing
a reaction test at TL 2; if the reaction test is failed, the unit may not do
anything else that activation.
Leadership may be reestablished by the next unit in command taking a
reorganize action. Once leadership is reestablished, units under that command
may move normally after passing a normal reaction test.
> Next comment: If you're doing this, use the rules on the unofficial
Yeah, I really like those,
http://nemesis.com.au/fastjax/stargrun/rules/leader.html
Andy spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> In message <199803172338.SAA00096@icx.net>, Thomas Barclay writes:
PSM (Platoon Sgt Maj) may well be with the Cmd unit. Each section or squad
(depends on sizes) in the platoon will have a squad leader who would either be
a senior corporal, master corporal, or a sergeant. So basically another squad
would take over command function.
If you know who in the command group is the LT, you can designate another one
as the PSM to take over the command group and the unit if the LT drops.
(unless he's dead too, then it would fall upon the senior squad commander).
> > > Maybe something like this: After loss of a leader unit (Routed or
Not consistent with other rules. How about this? Test at TL 3. If you fail,
you suffer normal failure effects (morale drops as normal, and you pull back
6"). A leaderless unit may thereafter not move or conduct a fire action
without passing a reaction test (TL 2? maybe) which represents the individual
initiative of the squad leader. If it fails, it does not move or do anything
for that turn.
> Leadership may be reestablished by the next unit in command taking a
If the PSM is alive, let him take a reorg on the command unit and if he
succeeds, then he's back in command. He may have to comm his troops to get
actions happening, if they've beat feet. After this reorg is succesful, He may
activate the squads as the normal LT did
once they know he's back in command - those within 6" know
immediately when he performs his reorg on the command section and others will
require a successful comms roll.. (Then unless you preasign the leader level
of the PSM, use the rules from either the rulebook or from the SG2 webpage to
determine his level).
If the PSM is croaked too, the senior squad leader must reorg his
unit and follow the same process - leader level assignment, reorg to
get the platoon ready, comms to locate out of contact units.
Any unit of a reorged platoon not commed and out of contact with command is
still considered leaderless as above.
> > Next comment: If you're doing this, use the rules on the unofficial
Of course, this begs the question: The commander is smoked. Your 200m left
advancing through trees. Do you have any idea? Maybe, maybe not. You wouldn't
get command from him (he's dead) hence you don't get reactivated, but
otherwise you might just assume radio silence and plow ahead with your own
activations and orders without any reason to suspect otherwise. Of course, I
can't think of a rules based approach to this, so maybe its convenient to
assume that someone always yells "They've got the LT!" over the radio....
Tom.
/************************************************
I can't speak for other armies but in the US Army you woudln't have the
Platoon Sgt
and the Plt Ldr in a geographically co-located command group together.
For instance the platoon leader (unless it's an LT that has been around for a
while, the platoon Sgt will run the platoon and the Lt will watch and learn),
normally hangs out just behind the pooint squad with his RTO and an MG team or
thw whole weapons Squad. The platoon Sgst usually is with the trail squad.
During bounding overwatch, the platoon Sgst and the platoon leader are again
not physically located together.
During halts the platoon Sgt will come up to the Plt Ldr or visa versa to
confer on pressing matters(like "where are we sarge?" or "what should we do
next?"). Getting hit then will be unfortunate for the platoon.
Now as Tom stated any operations order clearly delineates the chain of command
and who will take over. Unless the platoon's elements are seperated and out of
commo (not something that usually happens as platoons usually fight as a whole
unless split up on patrols), then it will be clear that the LT and PSGT are
down and then the next senior Sgt takes over. Again the exact order is
stipulated well in advance and ususaly not in question. Unless of course the
next senior Sgt is a dud and anotehr informal leader is the guy that will
really be taking over. That might be an interesting side rule to throw in for
units of lower quality.
Los
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Andy spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> ----------
Different nationalities have different rank titles (US sergeant is a squad
leader, in OZ an UK Sgt is a Platoon Sergeant!). In fact he fulfills the
function of a 2IC. The answer is an almost unversal No, he is in the same
squad. In orders for an operation there is always a Seniority detailed.
> > Maybe something like this: After loss of a leader unit
One thing to consider is will the squad automatically be aware of the HQ unit
demise? The effect of the Pl HQ being wiped out may never be discovered until
the Platoon has completed its mission and is at the LZ waiting for exfil!? If
the squads are in LOS to the HQ at the moment of destruction then maybe a test
is in order but if out of LOS?
IMHO this is one of those sections of the rules that are currently
uncomplicated and it would be nice to leave it that way.
???
> In message <199803180316.WAA31181@icx.net>, Thomas Barclay writes:
That's essentially a clarification of what I meant above, with the 6" pull
back added.
> > Leadership may be reestablished by the next unit in command taking a
Well, I don't really want to go out of the squad level. Half the time, when
there's a casulty, we randomly roll to see if it was the squad leader. I would
use the new squad leader replacement rules to handle the actual loss of the
command unit's squad leader; the rules I'm trying to develop are when the
command unit is no longer a factor (i.e., routed or destroyed). Do you feel
that the added detail is necessary? It's probably more realistic, but would
the game get bogged down with CT's and RT's everytime your command squad takes
fire?
> Of course, this begs the question: The commander is smoked. Your 200m
:
> suspect otherwise. Of course, I can't think of a rules based approach
I agree. It's easier just to let them know.
You could get pretty interesting with rules about command elements. What if
the command element were suppressed, and the units he commands
_thinks_ he's dead? :) Of course, most of it would probably bog the
game down. That's the main reason I don't want to detail the individuals in
the chain of command.
In message <D818EAA4F4C8D0118D59080009ED2847017BC871@bunyip.mov.vic.gov.au>,
"G
> lover, Owen" writes:
I just find it unsatisfying that a command unit that can make such a
difference in the game through motivating and reactivating squads can be
removed with no real negative aspect (other than "you don't get one anymore.")
Why not look for simple, uncomplicating rules to simulate this in SG2?
Andy spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> No, we usually number the people in the squad (1, 2, 3, etc...) and
A comment: A smaller force with more leaders (more command elements) even
redudnant ones, should be more capable than a comparable or larger force with
less command integrity. You could have two small command
squads - one with the LT, Comms, and a rifleman, and another with
PSM, maybe a SAW, and a rifleman. The one could take over command (or if you
want to be nasty, give them both command authority over the squads in the
platoon) if the other is smoked. This is an interesting component of th SG2
rules such that you can model different levels of command integrity or
different levels of force competence with simple changes like this. I like
this flexibility. It lets you give each force a "look and feel" you think
appropriate.
Tom.
/************************************************
> In message <199803182119.QAA01826@icx.net>, Thomas Barclay writes:
Interestingly enough, this whole idea is the result of a game I ran for some
newcomers that demonstrated this quite well. It consisted of a high tech force
that needed to cross 4' of table in 10 turns:
1 command (5 elements, 3/d10 w/ SAW, d8 armor, Reg 3, ortiller obs)
1 rifletem (5 elements, 3/d10 w/ SAW, d8 armor, Vet 2)
1 Light PA (5 elements, 3/d10, d10 armor, 8" move, Green 1)
1 Heavy PA (5 elements, 3/d10 w/ Gauss SAW, d12 armor, Reg 2)
After second turn, can call 6" radius orty, drops in 3 turns
Attempting to stop them were the following:
1 company command (5 elems, 3/d10 w/ SAW, d6 armor, Vet 2, forw. obs)
1 platoon A command (5 elems, 2/d8 w/ SAW, d4 armor, 8" move, Reg 2)
2 platoon A's (5 elems, 2/d8 w/ SAW, d4 armor, 8" move, Green 2/3)
1 platoon B command (5 elems, 2/d8 w/ SAW, d4 armor, Reg 2)
2 platoon B's (5 elems, 2/d8 w/ SAW, d4 armor, Green 2/Reg 2)
After second turn, can call 3" radius arty, drops next turn
The expanded hierarchy of command helped them tremendously, even though I
limited each squad to only two activations a turn. The HPA got stuck at the
edge of a wood. The arty and the 2 platoon B teams being activated twice a
turn stopped them cold. My questions came from the LPA managing to mangle the
platoon B command unit to stop it!
The higher tech force players kept complaining about their Reg 3 command unit.
I refused to let them frag him like they wanted!:) Even so, he
managed to call his orty 2/2, beating a 6 on a d8. It was ineffectual,
though.
> This is an interesting
Oh, yeah, I agree 100%.