Letters of marque

[quoted original message omitted]

Karl said:
> I have a bit of problem with pirates, letters of marques and privateers

a) surrender doesn't seem that unreasonable. If you took the position "you
give me your cargo (which is covered by insurance) and you keep
your ship--and your life", I think it would be quite persuasive.
b) your cost of goods is zero, so you don't have to capture *all* of
them intact--if you lose 50% of the shipment during the acquisition
process, you can still make a profit. c) needle beams may be useful in the
negotiations d) what is does require is a market. Historically the Spanish
colonies were legally required to buy goods from Spain only (other nations had
the same kind of laws), which meant the homeland merchants could and did jack
up their prices. Consequently smugglers (including pirates) could find
customers who were more interested in the price than the legality. I can
easily see that happening again in the GZGverse.

It depends on how you sell stuff. For high value items, ransoming might be the
standard method for recovering items. And if it is, it makes more sense for
the captain of ship that is outgunned to simply give up, pay the ransom (or
the insurance company will pay the ransom), and be on his way, ship intact.

If this doesn't sound reasonable, look at the way we (until recently)
taught airline pilots to handle hijackings - stay calm, give in to the
hijackers demands and let negotiators make a deal so that everyone gets away
without injury, as long as the hostages remain unhurt.

If you have a letter of marque, and there isn't a hot war going on, I can see
diplomatic lines being used to trade captured merchants, liners and crews back
and forth. Capturing a warship might be cause for going hot though.

Mercs might be used to capture sensor outposts, outlying supply depots or
hijacking supply freighters. As long as you didn't escalate the tensions by
slaughtering crew or indiscriminate destruction of property (i.e. you don't
raze the nearby civilian town after capturing the depot)
it would be more of a "cold or luke-warm" war type situation.

--Binhan

> -----Original Message-----

<<SNIP>>
> I have a bit of problem with pirates, letters of marques and

[quoted original message omitted]

All this talk of pirates aside, I have to point out that Nations of a certain
size and larger guard their commerce with a vengance. Piracy only occurs now
days on a really small scale since anywhere you can send a merchant, you can
send a warship and trained crew. Pirates work in small numbers in the
Carribean, the Eastern Indian and in some parts of south east asia. When they
start affecting larger ships and making a name for themselves, they loose
really bad really fast when a Frigate rolls up and blows them out of the
water.

Worse is when they come across larger ships that don't appear able to defend
themselves and yet are able to. Most nations are pretty hot about people
fishing in their waters with out license, imagine how bad they are about
pirates.

If a pirate force gets big enough to make a name, they are likely very, very
far away or living on a very short amount of borrowed time until a major or
moderate power takes notice and they roll across a task force.

The sheer amount of training, resources, intel and other assets that a naval
power can exert will far exceed any pirate's ability to combat. They survive
as pirates by attacking and robbing people who won't be missed. That's
refugees and poor nations.

There's a big difference between pirates and privateers. Privateers are
supposed to return the captured ship and cargo to a prize court (there are a
few legal exceptions), where it is awarded according to marinetine law.
Typically, the state that issued the Letter of Marque took a sizeable
percentage if it was found that the prize was taken in accordance to
marinetine law. The whole process often took months or even years and involved
the captain of the ship that took the prize, the owner's of that ship, the
owner's of the prize ship, and the owner's of the prize cargo.

For a good little book on this subject, try "The Prize Game" by Donald
A.
Petrie, published by Naval Institute Press.

ias

[quoted original message omitted]

> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:

A long time ago, in a campaign far away... This problem was addressed.

Against pirates, letters of marques and privateers is:

1) The massive size of any powers fleet of warships. In a 'survey' I conducted
a couple of years ago
   for the GZG-'Pedia, the average size of a 'system'
   force was 150+ major power FTL, 100 minor power
FTL,
   30-60 small power FTL ships (In every colonized
system.). 2) The direct jump to the destination planet by the shipping
industry tends to preclude the act of piracy, due to the number of warships
around colonies. 3) Sensors have an nearly unlimited range in the game,
allowing the intended target to accelerate to reach so area where
'proctection' is available. 4) To make a profit on the act, one must have a
'fence' to funnel the 'booty' into a colony thru the normal channels.

> This requires that you capture them reasonably
In favor of piracy could be: 1) Very high value cargo in the interstellar
trade. 2) Most of the governments in space have a tradition
   of being VERY bribeable/dishonest. (This would
include the UN.) 3) Piracy can work if the number of warships per planet if a
reasonably small number, the range of sensors is limited, and the freighters
need to make a long run to the Edge of System (EOS) to avoid the systems sun
prior to making the system to system jump.

A sample pirate ship could/would include:
A high thrust (T=6+)
Armor (protection from defensive fire)
Jammer/ECM (delay detection as long as possible)
A crew 3 to 5 times the norm. (to allow for losses during capture, and prize
crew. The use of MT EMP missiles would be an advantage for capture of a
freighter, since not real damage occures. The use of MT torp fighters modified
to carry boarding

parties is a useful and inexpensive method of
  transporting/boarding the freighter.

Bye for now,

[quoted original message omitted]

From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de (K.H.Ranitzsch)

> I have a bit of problem with pirates, letters of marques and

Depends on the nature of piracy and private shipping in space, and the nature
of interstellar commerce. If you assume that a frigate class ship

with a needle beam and a class2 beam outguns almost any civilian ship in

space, then piracy in open space is only a matter of finding your victim

(Needlebeams are pretty useless in most FB scale games, but as Genre or
backstory weapons, they enable pirate storylines). Pirates aren't going
to go after tungsten ore or tennis shoes, but hi-tech blueprints?
nanodevices? Ming vases? Sure. Not to mention basic theft of starships. Needle
out an FTL in open space and jam the coms, and the transport is
at your mercy. Put the crew/passengers in a hold (or space them if
you're bloodthisty), and FTL tow the ship to your base with a slaver ship.

Also, for some (maybe not the most legal) interstellar shipping, all
matters to the shipper and reciever is recipt of goods - they're not
going to care that the ship it left on is not the same as the ship it arrives
on. The deliverer gets paid.

G'day,

> All this talk of pirates aside, I have to point out that Nations of a

Unfortunately they also tend to register their ships in small third party
nations (to avoid liability and taxes etc) and thus are susceptible to pirate
raids such as happens around Indonesia and the Philippines. The South East
Asian pirates do try and take on commercial shipping there as the crews
are very small and unarmed - using water cannons to prevent boarding
rather than waiting until the raiders are on board.

Cheers

[quoted original message omitted]

G'day,

Just stealing Derek's email for a sec...

> I just wonder what this supposedly has to do with the pirate raids.
Those
> ships registered in Panama, Cyprus or Bermuda hardly ever see their

Sorry trying to do two things at once and so probably wasn't as clear as I
could've been. I was trying to show that the claim that home nations wouldn't
stand for their trade being intercepted isn't necessarily going to hold true
as the ships involved are often registered in third party countries and so the
connection back to their real home nation falls down... or at least on the
surface anyway. That probably wasn't any clearer, but as tired as I am I think
if I try to rewrite the explanation one more time even I'm not going to know
what I meant;)

Also while I remember, it might be pertinent to the general discussion is that
sometimes it is the navy of a nation state that acts like pirates, thinking to
the incidents involving the Chinese navy and boats which were off China, but
in international waters.

Cheers

Beth

As far as any piracy in the Caribbean Basin at this time, I cannot recall a
case we have been involved with or one that has crossed message traffic that I
have seen. There is still thievery but the "drug runner" steals boat to use to
smuggle is over. Purpose purchased vessels are the current choice of platform.

And yes, if we heard of any piracy we would respond with a Cutter (less than
a frigate but more multi-mission capable) and it would go badly for the
pirates.

I have no knowledge of the other area so will not comment.

Bob Makowsky USCG GANTSEC Puerto Rico

[quoted original message omitted]

> On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:39:11 +1100 Beth.Fulton@csiro.au writes:

Much as I hate to make the guys in DC look good - the maritime safety
guys in NIMA (National Imagery and Mapping Agency aka known as "Not Interested
in Maps Anymore) issue warnings about piracy regularly as part of their
maritime safety mission. Wonder how difficult it would be to get that
information to determine frequency, severity, etc.? In the last few months in
the South Asia and, much more, in the SE Asia parts of the BBC online there
have been articles about piracy events (in port raids has been popular
recently IIRC.)

Gracias,

> At 12:00 AM +1100 1/13/02, Derek Fulton wrote:

And what do those vessels usually bother? I'd be quite surprised if they even
looked at a 1st or 2nd world vessel sideways.

> At 9:21 AM -0400 1/12/02, Bob Makowsky wrote:

The large preponderance of Piracy that I have heard rumored to be active in
the Caribbean involves 2 types:

a. theft (by subterfuge or force) of small boats from people for the purpose
of running drugs. b. groups that prey on refugee's in boats.

I highly doubt anyone would even contemplate taking over a commercial ship in
waters so close to the US. It would be like waving a big flag and "saying come
invade my country."

> And yes, if we heard of any piracy we would respond with a Cutter (less

Exactly my point. Plus, you guys have High Endurance Cutters that go all the
way to asia and back from Hawaii.

> At 11:00 AM -0500 1/12/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:

And again, who are they bothering? What kind of pirates are they? What are
they equipped with?

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:52:08 -0500 Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
writes:
> At 11:00 AM -0500 1/12/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:
<snip>
> And again, who are they bothering? What kind of pirates are they?

IIRC, anybody who is target of opportunity (since most ships are
registered third world this gives increased protection/decreased
reflexive response for first/third world navies) is targeted.  Some
ships disappear and end up in 'gray trade' traffic with new registry from
complaint government officials. Most involve taking something from the ship,
again IIRC.

Light infantry armed plus heavy weapons if a ship is the transportation to a
boarding or assault. Most heavily armed options for a larger USCG cutter would
be at best equally armed I think. But my father left the USCG in the mid to
late 1940's (eye injury; sees light in one eye; other is visually normal) due
to not wearing goggles, errant paint chip and a crummy medic.

Again IIRC, their boats have MG's and crew with RPG type weapons but nothing
much heavier that I have ever read about (but then I'm not in Maritime Safety
and I'm not monitoring the traffic.)

Also, there is plenty of jurisdictional fighting and national pride
issues involved in any potential multi-national patrol force
discussions. And no one's navy in these regions has the desire to involve
themselves it seems. And third world Coast Guards are usually inadequately
equipped to clash with these guys.

Gracias,

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:32:40 -0500 Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com>
writes: <snip>
> I highly doubt anyone would even contemplate taking over a

Again always IIRC:  Most incidents are Indonesian/Malaysian waters.
South Asia sites, plus a few others. There have been incidents with boarding
big commercial ships and removing things of value (and killing resisters) plus
medium to small ships involved in interisland trade are at risk in the above
regions. In port events have been recorded in the last few years (My last look
at stats was brief and was the 1998 and 1999 numbers. Plus many incidents are
not reported (Why bother? The Indonesian Navy isn't going to recover the
stolen goods) as in many other forms of crime.)

Gracias,

Glenn,

> At 11:00 AM -0500 1/12/02, Glenn M Wilson wrote:

Much the same as happens in the Carib. (below) IIRC, 'they' are suppposed to
be somewhat better equipped and a bit more reckless.

> At 9:21 AM -0400 1/12/02, Bob Makowsky wrote:

Ok, so why are we assuming that this isn't the case?

> I highly doubt anyone would even contemplate taking over a

Depends on what size and who owns it... If it's a Free Trader, the government
in question may not care, especially if they have a record for smuggling. If
it's a ship owned by a big conglomerate with alot of lobbyists...

Hey, it may also be like several of Movements in SA, they kidnap people all
the time for ransom (also a tactics of the pirates of yore IIRC). Now we have
pirates specifically targetting passanger liners and yachts...

That becomes the real question (as we have danced around in this
discussion). What does GZG commercial/personal/tourist shipping/travel
look like?

There are most certainly pirates, but without an answer to the above question
there is very little ability to figure out where they fit in the food chain.

> And yes, if we heard of any piracy we would respond with a Cutter (less

If we could get away with it... Most countries, even in the current situation,
get cranky when other nations start invading thier territorial waters. Just
because we can send ships there doesn't mean that they have the... err...
'political freedom' to do so.

I would also imagine Pirates hiding out in areas that they know very well and
have an advantage in. Asteroid Fields, Planetoid Belts, and the like. Small
maneuverable ships have the advantage, *plus* it's home ground.

> --- David Rodemaker <dar@horusinc.com> wrote:

> Depends on what size and who owns it... If it's a

Also depends on the government--the NRE has a stated
policy of investigation of all incident involving
NRE-flagged ships.  And has a tendency to go
pirate-hunting with main fleet elements on occasion
(when the IF is quiescent enough). If the NAC
maintains the UK/US traditional attitude towards
piracy, it's not going to be real safe to plink
NAC-flagged ships either.  Ships flagged out of
Liberia or the GZGverse equivelant are fair game.

> "K.H.Ranitzsch" wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
Those
> ships registered in Panama, Cyprus or Bermuda hardly ever see their

If the ships preyed upon by pirates were US flagged, the owners could
legitimately demand that the USN do something. That was the whole point behind
the reflagging of Kuwaiti tankers, after spirited iranian youths in speedboats
started peppering them with RPG's [although that situation reversed the normal
order of things, the US offered to escort american registered vessels]. I
suspect that the Royal Navy (if it still has an overseas presence) would also
express its annoyance at the hindrance of its merchant vessels.

The nations that offer shipowners flags of convenience do not have to tax to
support a blue water fleet, so they make no effort to protect "their"
shipping.

Derek
> >Also while I remember, it might be pertinent to the general

Ryan Gill asked:
> And what do those vessels usually bother? I'd be quite surprised if

Well, a PRC fighter rammed one of our surveillance planes last April or
so....remember?

Even "real" pirates (Dyaks) were known to attack first world ships, IIRC,
although I don't know how long ago. Lord knows what they thought they'd do
with a destroyer if they captured one.

LAST YEAR, I saw a special on a TV channel dealing with FPBs conducting pirate
operations in these waters.

AT least two of these FPBs, mounted anti-ship missiles in addition to
57mm AA guns and 25mm AA guns.

The vessels also mounted 14.7mm and 12.7mm HMG, with crew armed to the teeth,
plus each carried specialist boarding parties equipped with
AK-47s, RPDs,  RPGs, and  hand grenades. . . .

The FPBs were equipped with sophisticated sonar, surfafe and air radar systems
too according to the Aussie Merchant Navy witnesses and victims of the attack.

Secretly taken photos, showed FPBs beyond any doubt coming alongside the
containership that was pirated.

Best of all, LOL, was when the Aussie victims arrived in an Indonesian port to
report what had happened and found the 2 FPBs sitting in port at the Navy pier
along with other FPBS...

According to the TV program, incident s like this are on the rise, with
Indonisian, Malaysian, Thai, ChiCom and North Korean Navy FPBs as well as
privately owned FPBs pulling off more piratical boardings, killing,
kidnappings for ransom, and grand theft.

DAWGFACE

From: <DAWGFACE47@webtv.net>

> LAST YEAR, I saw a special on a TV channel dealing with FPBs

> Secretly taken photos, showed FPBs beyond any doubt coming alongside

That's the main reason why mercenary anti-pirate navies haven't been
used, as far as I can see. It's because the Pirates very often ARE
the local law-enforcement forces. Fight them and you automatically
become a pariah.

BTW I didn't know these films had been released for public distribution. Could
you give me some details re who showed them and when?

The problem is particularly acute in the South China Sea, where the object of
the theft is not just the contents of the ship's safe, it's the cargo, and
sometimes the ship itself as an additional bonus. The crew

Small boat theft for drug running is a thing of the past. Without going too
deep into it, they are just not effective. Current smuggling doctrine is
for fast, multi-engine boats that go well wide of shipping routes (and
avoid land as well due to maritime patrol aircraft). Most of the cruisers that
could be stolen do not work in this profile.

As far as refugees that does happen but it is usually the folks that the
refugees hired to take them that prey on them.  A mid-ocean intercept is
tricky and is a bit to chancy to bank on. Heck even with excellent comms I
have been "at the rendezvous" and the cutter I am to meet is no where to be
found by site or radio.

I would say in the Caribbean at this time these pirate activities are very
very small (I would say nonexistent but then one criminal act could prove me
wrong).

Bob Makowsky USCG SAR Puerto Rico

[quoted original message omitted]

USCG is a bit better than equally armed. Our smaller 110' and 210' Cutters are
armed with 25mm Chain gun and multiple.50 cal M2. Our 270' with 76mm main gun.
The threat is small arms and possible RPGs. None have been used against us
yet.

Bob Makowsky USCG SAR Puerto Rico

[quoted original message omitted]

At 06:12  12/01/02 -0500, Chriswrote:
> Derek

What Beth was referring to was instances of local Chinese commanders preying
on shipping close to Chinese waters, they would board, insist that the ship's
navigation was in error and they had strayed across into Chinese waters, they
would then confiscate the ship and cargo. Ships carrying cars were a desirable
target.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 07:44:44 -0400 "Bob Makowsky" <rmakowsky@yahoo.com>
writes:
> USCG is a bit better than equally armed. Our smaller 110' and 210'

Well, duh, we did it right!

Peace through overwhelming firepower - works for me.

Gracias,

[quoted original message omitted]

G'day,

> And again, who are they bothering? What kind of pirates are they?

Everything from recreational sailing boats off on a jaunt around the world to
top of the line super tankers. From the reports I've seen all nations, all
ship sizes, all cargo types have been targeted and if anything they're getting
more daring as time goes on. Classic example was shown on a doco on Aussie ABC
TV not to long back, they took a large cargo vessel then stemmed into port
under a false name that they'd painted on in white rather hurriedly after
painting over the raised letters of the real name in black.... it was oh
sooooo obvious;)

Cheers

G'day again,

> And what do those vessels usually bother? I'd be quite surprised if

Well I know they've at least taken at vessels that were Aussie and US in
crew/cargo though may be not in registration come to think of it.

Cheers

G'day,

> I would also imagine Pirates hiding out in areas that they

There's that, but there's also the "I know where you have to go" part of it
too. Seagoing rendezvous can be hard to pull off, especially if you're hunting
rather than meeting on purpose, as a result if you look at piracy through the
ages it was concentrated in spots they knew you had to go through or where
there are limited routes. So before they invented the sea going clock they had
to use set routes for age of sail trading so they were open to piracy etc big
time, now days its concentrated on specific islands or straits (e.g. Straits
of Malacca). So in the GZGverse I'd expect them to concentrate in asteroid
belts etc that cut the main route from jump point to point of call, especially
if there are only a limited number of navigable routes through the obstacle.

Cheers

> On 12-Jan-02 at 11:01, Glenn M Wilson (triphibious@juno.com) wrote:

> Much as I hate to make the guys in DC look good - the maritime safety

When I was in the Navy there was a story running around about a group of
Korean pirtates on a craft the size of a utility boat. They eased up beside a
fat merchant in the middle of the night and fired off 30 or 40 shots with
small arms. At which point the watch officer of the destroyer they were
ordering to surrender aimed all the searchlights at them and set them off.
Apparently most of the pirates bailed in complete panic and swam back to
shore. Those that didn't were turned over to the Korean authorities.

> On Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:46:24PM +1100, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:

Also, deep-space inter-jump points. If a freighter's taking a route that
involves more than one jump before it gets to its destination, one assumes
that it's going to file a flight plan (so if it doesn't show up
the coast-guard-equivalent knows where to look). A group of freighters
might also want to set rendezvous points in deep space to make sure the fleet
stays together.

Obviously, sitting on a random location in deep space doesn't gain the pirate
very much; but if he has an inside man at that
coast-guard-equivalent office, or on board the ship, then he can come
down on the merchant while the latter is still in jump-shock...

> I would also imagine Pirates hiding out in areas that they

If you're in the Star Wars universe, yes. If you're in the real world, you can
simulate a dense asteroid field as follows: Flip a coin. If it lands on heads,
place one rock on the
table--something about the size of the head of a pin is about right.  If
it lands on tails, no rock. If it lands on edge, two rocks.

> "laserlight@quixnet.net" wrote:

Don't let me repost my "dissertation" on asteroid fields.  ;-)   (though
you can probably find it somewhere in the archives)

Mk

Karl,

This is true, we do not control the open seas of the world. My points were
based on the Caribbean only. As I stated, I do not have statistics for other
parts of the world.

If a US Merchant vsl was hit over there it would not be a USCG asset that
went. It would be a Navy task force with USCG Law Enforcement detachments on
board.

Bob Makowsky USCG SAR

[quoted original message omitted]

G'day,

> If you're in the Star Wars universe, yes. If you're in the

Assuming all asteroid fields are like the one in this solar system. Mind you
with the advances in planet finding they may have spotted one from another
solar system by now - Indy?

OK I'm playing devils advocate, but its worth a thought;)

> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Asteroid Fields, Planetoid Belts, and the like.

G'day,

> When I was in the Navy there was a story running around about a

Ahh that's the one! That one has been running around marine science circles
for a while now (especially after some Aussie, UK and US science boats have
been hit over the last couple of years), but I was never sure if it was just a
story or not.

Cheers

G'day,

> Edge of System can occur above the plane of the

Or science or if nearby planet etc etc. OK I was trying to pick spots that
were confined and obviously didn't pick a good example;)

I don't think we've spotted a belt - that'd almost have to be an optical

observation since it wouldn't perturb the star by enough to be detectable.

Sure. We *could* use one rock on the table, but that's boring. Boring. I

have no problem with the occasional dense debris field of some sort for story
purposes or just plain dramatic effect. I note that while lots of people
complain about the asteroid scenes from ESB, nobody seems to have

a problem with the mynocs or - god help us - the giant space slug Our
Heroes flew into. And landed on. In. Whatever.

I also note that Larry Holland's X-Wing games did feature the occasional

asteroid field, they weren't quite so close as to be major collision hazards
in a dogfight. make of that what you may.

> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:

> G'day,
Mind you
> with the advances in planet finding they may have spotted one from

> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:

> Or science or if nearby planet etc etc. OK I was

Not being critical, but I think that most of the time (on the list), planet to
planet direct transition
is the norm.   An Edge of System application is the
exception rather than the norm.

Bye for now,

G'day,

> Not being critical, but I think that most of the time

Do you mean the jump points are very close to planets? Or that routes taken
go planet -> jump point at system edge -> planet with out distraction?
I'd kinda always got the impression jump points were a bit away from planets,
but that might just be me.

Cheers

From: Michael Llaneza maserati@earthlink.net
> Sure. We *could* use one rock on the table, but that's boring. Boring.
I have no problem with the occasional dense debris field of some sort for
story purposes or just plain dramatic effect.

I didn't say it was exciting, just realistic. If you want exciting, go right
ahead. You could say that you're chasing someone through a jovian's trojan
points, or you find a meteor swarm or comet that's split up. Of course, most
asteroids are small enough that you'd have a hard time hitting them, if
they're in the 1mu=1000km scale.

If you want a little more diversity, you could add Herbig Haro objects,
pulsars, black holes...