Fascinating. If I didn't know Jon and I hadn't talked about this, I'd swear we
were cribbing from the same sheets. His writing is almost (change the names,
project what he says into SG2 terms) what me and Los and Beth had come up
with. You been using the Orbital Mind Control lasers again, St.Tuffley?
Me and Carlos (Los) used a home brew set of rules for SG2 which featured
roughly the same type of model for KV society, though with Beth's criticisms,
we made the Frenzy a little less likely to onset because blind rage is rarely
a survival attribute and if it only applied in the
pre-history, it would have been bred out or ameliorated by the KV
develoment in their technological period.
We concluded that this was (similar to Jon) a defence mechanism for the
species - both for the individual and (on a larger scale) for the clan
and
race. Individuals were expendable to protect key clan/race assets.
We also concluded that those who gravitated to positions of power (Los
famous Purple KV, the officers - WarMasters, WarLeaders, ClanLeaders,
etc) would obviously have to have better control of their frenzy and the
ability to inspire or suppress this reaction in their followers. Perhaps these
are the ones Jon refers to as being capable of suppressing their own
reactions. (Or contrariwise, I assume they can bring it on easier if they want
that
kill-rage). In game terms, we let the leaders spend actions to calm or
frenzy their troops with some appropriate rolls.
When a KV enterred the frenzied state, it became quite nasty at Close Combat
but didn't tend to used ranged combat. We also assumed this
Adrenaline-like
capacity gave them some burst movement (only usable for entering CC) that made
them like the Cheetah in a Close Assault closing. The risk was of course
becoming winded after the CC (give them a suppression).
We also thought about how humans evolve (re adrenalin/testosterone) and
sort of applied a bit of humanophysiology. That is we assumed that the
easy-to-frenzy troops with the natural bent for close combat were the KV
Juves - they form the assault units. They frenzy easier, don't recover
as easily, and are young and full of vigour.
The older a KV got, if he survived the acid test of being a Juve, meant he had
learned to suppress his reaction more, and he then got moved into EW,
sniper/marksman, command, Heavy Weapons (SAW teams or GMS Teams), or
Recce units. Or perhaps Engineers and Armour too. (Don't want your armour crew
berserking).
So similar to how every Marine is first and foremost a rifleman, all KV had
pretty much served time as Juves in the assault teams. The older, calmer, more
controlled ones gravitated into specialties based on their
disposition/talents.
I can't believe how well this meshes with what Jon has written.... very
convenient. With some of the naming Jon has used, me and Los can now
slightly revamp our work and release the "until-BDS-comes-out" SG2 and
FMASkirmish "home brew" rules for KraVak shortly. Who knows, maybe St.Tuffley
will lift a few of our ideas:)
Tom.
Co-Author of the KV rules for the Grey Day To Die scenario at Lancaster.
PS - From a tech standpoint, we gave them heavily armoured vehicles (a
la FT design philosophy) railguns (similar to HKPs) in varying sizes and with
advanced miniaturization techonology, and ECM that was "slippery" to human
equipment (the same was true in reverse - until both sides grow
accustomed
to the spectrum shifts and differing technologies used - each has
trouble seeing through the others camouflage and countermeasures). Personally,
we gave them railgun rifles which had a lot in common with the FSE rifle in
SG2
(high penetration, lower FP) and dangerous SAWs and nasty GMS/Ps
(figuring the average KV is stronger and more able to carry a heavier piece of
kit).
We figured their railguns were gravitic based, so their tanks were gravtanks.
Plus my Armourcast Eldar Tempests and Epicast? (forget the name) looked great
as KV tanks.
> Fascinating. If I didn't know Jon and I hadn't talked about this, I'd
Not so that you'd notice..... ;-)
Actually this is a case of finally getting round to writing down the ideas
I'd had for the K'V for a long while - I've always intended them to have
some kind of berserker-mode and a "reversed" confidence system for DS
and SG; I know I've discussed this some time ago with quite a few people, but
can't recall if I've ever talked about it on-list or not. I'm glad that
it fits in with what you've been devising, and yes, I'm sure we can share
ideas and have some cross-pollination (oo-er...) - remember, "great
minds
think alike, and fools seldom differ".... :-)
> Me and Carlos (Los) used a home brew set of rules for SG2 which
Could I see the write-up of what you've done? [OFF-LIST please!]
> gravtanks. Plus my Armourcast Eldar Tempests and Epicast ? (forget the
I saw a photo of a Tempest in a game at one of the websites, and slapped
myself on the forehead with a "Doh!" Of course - almost any Eldar
vehicle would have great use as a KV vehicle.
Unfortunately, Armourcast don't produce the things anymore.. <sigh>
JS
---
> We concluded that this was (similar to Jon) a defence mechanism
1 a) Do they each berserk individually, or b) does the first to berserk give
off pheromones which help trip the response in other nearby individuals? 2 a)
If the latter, does the pheromone guarantee the response (no die roll needed),
or b) does it just raise the probability (die roll modifier)?
I would think b) for both of the above. If it's a survival trait, you'd
survive a lot better by having a gang of berserkers attack all at once, rather
than one at a time. Individuals would vary in degree of susceptibility to the
response, plus you'd have environmental factors like wind, rain, and distance.
And the Walkers of the Path would, perhaps, not just rely on
words, but a counter-pheromone as well.
Logical thus far? Okay, now what happens when we put them in
combat armor/vacc suits?
Those who go berserk won't get the support of their squadmates. The berserks
will tend to suffer a higher casualty rate than they otherwise would. On the
other hand, the remainder will be more likely to be able to respond
rationally. Their own pheromones cannot disperse in the environment and will
tend to keep them enraged. KV vehicles with multiple crew, or spacecraft with
confined cockpit areas, may be less efficient than they would normally be
because each crew member would have to stay buttoned up (as opposed to humans,
who can just keep their helmets nearby); else they risk the whole crew getting
enraged in the confined space.
Single-crew vehicles and aerospace craft would therefore be more
prevalent. Once a crew does go berserk, it would be very difficult to calm
them again.
G'day,
> Logical thus far? Okay, now what happens when we put them in
Just to play devils advocate... or alternatively if it is a feature they want
to retain they coud build a chemosensory detector into the suit which is
linked network like between suits so when one goes off it could release a
synthetic version of the pheromone in other suits...
Just a thought
Beth
Thats the sort of thing that research into combat drugs has been for isn't it?
A way to get troups to respond the way a commander wants them to in different
situations.
Buck
> Laserlight wrote:
> >We concluded that this was (similar to Jon) a defence mechanism
In short our Kra'Vak frenzy rules have both an individual component and a
group component.
First off a Kra'Vak Claw (platoon) is organized as such:
A KV Juve starts out in the:
2xClaws: (each w/ six figs armed with nailers). These are assault
squads. They are comprised of the youngest KV (known as Juves). It is
their mission in life to close w/ the enemy. They do not have to check
to enter CC. They also get a special movement type when entering Close combat
known as "burst move" which is 3dx instead of 2dx combat move (they also have
standard combat move available to them.) A burst move subjects them to a
winding check (normal reaction check, which leaves
them suppressed if failed). They CC at +1 quality die type.
(once the JV matures, and shows prowess just prior to switching sex it can go
either into the Eyes or Fists)
2x Eyes: (each with two figs armed w/ Nailers<FP2 Impact D12>) They are
scout specialists and have the ability to make scouting attempts with a
+1 quality die shift.
4x Fists (each is a three fig team comprised of either a SAWor a GMS with
Nialers for the other figs) These are the heavy weapons teams. They are not
subject to Burst move (Older and smarter and more heavily laden.
HQ: Two figs with Nailers. Comprised of Platoon leader and one
escort/comms man (note, not EW)
FRENZY: (which will know be known to us as: RO'KAH (Clouded War Mind) This
occurs in two circumstances. INDIVIDUAL: (This applies to all Kra'Vak) If a
Kra'Vak figure receives a wound, either in close combat or direct fire and the
wound fails to either incapacitate or kill, then he must
make a +2 reaction test for FRENZY. Failure means that the figure must
proceed directly to the nearest enemy figure and continue to CC until
such time as he dies, kills everyone, or passes a +2 reaction test to
calm (After he has no enemy figs within move radius. A figure in frenzy
ignores all suppression results. Upon coming out of frenzy the figure is
automatically winded (suppressed).
GROUP: There are two special actions available to the Kra'Vak platoon leader,
company and bn commander (and purple Kra'Vak.)
Invoke Frenzy (RO'KAH) A platoon leader, who make a successful comms
check can attempt to induce Frenzy by making a +2 reaction check.
(Against the CLaw leaders quality die.) If the PL is within six inches from
his squad leaders then no commo check is needed. After that the
Frenzy proceeds as normal. A KV company commander can do this with a +1
Frenzy Check and with a Battalion commander it's automatic.
SO a leader can do the old pass two actions down to his squad leaders and get
both Claws into Frenzy at once.
Calm Frenzy (RO'KAH)
The leader reverses the process with a +2 RC check by each squad (after
passing the action) to calm frenzy. No bonus for bn or company CO. It's harder
to get them to stop.
Now the key is to fit the Purple Kra'Vak (SIA'NA?) into this scheme. We could
have him be the only guy to be able to revoke Frenzy or we could have him be
the only guy to invoke it (though I don't like that) or we could have his
presence allow the whole force, provided it's within one range band of him, go
Frenzy after one frenzy check.
Anyway, Tom and I have been using these Frenzy rules since last September in a
number of test games (as well as this Kra'Vak TOE and other rules) and they
were refined for Grey Day. Tom can refine these as I may have been off on a
few points. They've been working quite well. In
the absence of BDS, it's _our_ cannon and we were getting ready to post
the whole thing.
Cheers...
> Laserlight wrote:
> >We concluded that this was (similar to Jon) a defence mechanism for
Another possibility is that their bodies don't use pheromones. Maybe their
response is triggered by visual cues that go straight to the response center.
Like a rabbit that will reflexively freeze when a hawk-like shape is
above it.
In this case, vac-suits would have no effect. Though I agree that the
sight of some berserking should increase the likelyhood that they all will.
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Jeff Miller wrote:
> Laserlight wrote:
yet another possibillity is that pheromones are involved, but they are
inhibitory, rather than stimulatory: KV produce signals which tell the others
to calm down. when they enter frenzy, they stop producing the pheromone. this
gives just the same dynamics as the
stimulatory-pheromones
setup, with a few twists. sealed suits would lead to *more* frenzy (berzerker
PA!), due to the isolation of the individual from the flock's
pheromones. tightly-packed KV would be less likely to frenzy (increased
pheromone concentration), spread-out ones more (vice versa). if KV are
moving fast, they are not letting the pheromone build up around them, and so
they frenzy.
there is actually an evolutionary justification for this - it stops the
KV frenzying when they are densely packed, as this will generally be when they
are in family groups, where frenzy is counterproductive. plus,
individual KV are more likely to frenzy - one KV vs a Kra'Rex (big, fast
predator) can only survive by frenzy, whereas a group is most effective when
acting sensibly fighting collectively. plus, a running KV is either escaping
or charging, so this is when the frenzy should kick in.
personally, i think subliminal audio cues (KV make fast little squeaking
noises in the background of speech when they're excited, and these have a
frenzy-stimulating effect) is the way to go - it works across sealed
suits
and doesn't need a full-body video link.
tom
> yet another possibillity is that pheromones are involved, but
plus,
> individual KV are more likely to frenzy - one KV vs a Kra'Rex
The problem with you people (the list) is that you come up with the same ideas
I do, and then you post them before I do.
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Jeff Miller wrote:
Why do I get horrible mental pictures of Kra'Vak Sia'Na with Afro wigs and
pink-and-green shell-suits, going "Calm DOWN, our Terry, calm DOWN!"...?
{NB: US listers will NOT understand what the hell I'm talking about
here....}
:-)
I may have been off on a few points. They've been working quite well. In
> the absence of BDS, it's _our_ cannon and we were getting ready to post
Please post Los and Tom, it's great.
How far have you guys developed Kra'Vak background/history etc?
(ie see my post about it previously)