Tony, Tom & co.
Given that you have a whole Kra'Vak ship intact, how long do you think it
would take humans to identify and duplicate a component within the range of
Kra'Vak technology? Do you think our guys could easily identify components?
Would you think in terms of months, years or decades?
What priority do you think the UN etc. would put on each of the ships
components (power, drives, weapons, armor, nav, blah blah blah)?
Is there a precedent for complex system duplication in recent years. IRAQ's
nuclear program? How would that compare with duplication of an ancient alien
races metallurgy?
Robert.
> ----------
(I
> know the egos of my clubs members.
> be
TWIMC, Let it be known to all who care,
I like Kra'Vak railguns!
It only looked like I was stunned the other day whem the two heavy cruisers
and a medium went away in a flash of railgun
and scattergun fire! I really enjoyed the game...I considered
that moment to be an attention getting device, it worked.
I was a lot more careful after that. We mere humans beat
them again, it is a challenge, but if it isn't a challenge why bother?
Bye for now,
> Deakin, Robert wrote:
Components: With a complete undamaged ship for evaluation, the process would
still take years,
UN Priority: 0) Star charts and language. 1) Weapons 2) Armor
3) Crew High-G support equipment
4) All else seems to be at ot below the human norm. (FTL, Sub-light,
sensors)
The trick to duplication is not the analysis of the components/
materials, it is in the duplication of the processes that create
the components/materials in sufficient quanities and quality
to be useful to the war effort.
Bye for now,
> Given that you have a whole Kra'Vak ship intact, how long do you think
Depends on the size of the ship. A Fighter would take a lot less time to strip
down than a fleet carrier. I imagine a fighter in a couple of weeks, a
corvette a month, a cruiser a few months and a capital a year or so. That's to
disassemble it down to components. Study time for systems might be longer than
that even, but the point is you can then have one set of scientists looking at
the guns, one at the drives.. Indeed, something as big as a capital ship you
would probably research in situ, having teams studying different systems while
the ship is in commisionable state before you start dismantling it.
> What priority do you think the UN etc. would put on each of the ships
I would say drives first. While the Kra'Vak railguns are a neat weapon, it's
their turning ability that puts them above human ships, IMO. If a human
cruiser could turn as fast as a Kra'Vak one, it'd find it a damn sight harder
to get its guns on line. Then probably the railguns or fire control. But, as I
say, once you have it in bits you can study them all at once..
> Is there a precedent for complex system duplication in recent years.
Iron is Iron, Silicon is silicon. Unless the Kra'Vak are using some wierd
pseudoscience a railgun still basically works the same way we know they do.
Electricity still flows through conductors. To duplicate something isn't
actually that difficult. To understand how it is doing what it's doing is a
different matter.
Now the Sa'Vasku, they're a totally different kettle of fish. Is there a
doctor in the house? Or perhaps, a vet?
TTFN
Jon
On Wednesday, April 22, 1998 10:17 AM, Jonathan white
> [SMTP:jw4@bolton.ac.uk] wrote:
> Iron is Iron, Silicon is silicon. Unless the Kra'Vak are using some
With the advent of nano-technology, duplication at the atomic
level will be pretty easy to accomplish, this has been touted as one of the
possible achievements by the 21st Century.
Consider also using belligerent nanites being fired at the
alien ships and destroying them at the atomic/molecular level.
On another track I'm not convinced a rail gun would actually be an effective
long range space weapon compared to
an energy weapon. even hyper-velocity is slow compared
to C and space combat ranges.
> With the advent of nano-technology, duplication at the atomic
Would make rather a mockery of any sort of campaign resources thing. If your
carrier gets zapped, just grow another. Still, I supose you would always
recquire the base molecules for the nanites to work with.
> Consider also using belligerent nanites being fired at the
Didn't someone sugges these as one of the alternative Sa'Vasku weapons a while
back? I have a feeling they would be like the chemical weapons of
today - the better powers wouldn't bother with the m as they would be
far too tricky to contain, transport and deploy..
> On another track I'm not convinced a rail gun would actually
Depends what%age of C you are getting your rounds up to. If your rounds are
going significantly quicker than their targets are it's not such a problem.
TTFN
Jon
> You wrote:
> I would say drives first. While the Kra'Vak railguns are a neat
> Iron is Iron, Silicon is silicon. Unless the Kra'Vak are using some
One notes that all they have to do to get the railguns operational would be to
ask an Army technician for the stats on what the grunts call a Mass Driver
Cannon. Of course, in the ESU, this probably requires a major espionage
operation, but in nations where the interservice rivally is less potent[1], it
shouldn't be a problem.
[1]I'm Assuming ESU follows time-honored Communist/Dictatorial plan of
putting all it's military organizations at each other's throats. The worst
case of this is Syria, which has 11 intelligence agencies, all of which spy on
each other, and IIRC 6 of which do nothing but spy on each other.
Mr.Deakin asked:
> Is there a precedent for complex system duplication in recent years.
IRAQ's nuclear program? How would that compare with duplication of an ancient
alien races metallurgy?
In respect to Iraq, you have to admit that A) they are not overall very
advanced and B) don't have the resources (money, equipment, talent) that a
more advanced country has access to. So if the aliens are demonstratably more
advanced (not just different) and the country that is researching is decidedly
poor (like PAU or NSL) then perhaps you could expect decades, but for rich
countries (NAC,ESU,FSE, etc.) that time frame would be much less. The laws of
metalurgy and physics are extremely democratic. Assuming that new branches of
material science did not need to be invented you could expect a lot of systems
to be 'decoded' and eventually replicated. You might, say, identify a Fire
Control system for a rail gun. You don't have
to duplicate it because you already have your own FireCons - you would
be better off adapting one of them to the purpose for example.
--Pete
Tim spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> On another track I'm not convinced a rail gun would actually
Without sarcasm, hyper-v is still fast compared with human command
reflexes etc. Always a problem in ST - Dodge that lightspeed weapon,
Mr.Sulu.... err..... sorry it isn't your fault you couldn't....
I think combat has to happen at a very small fraction of C (or relative
velocity at the very least) for humans to have any part in it. Our reflexes
(even boosted), our thought processes (complex, capable of intuitive leaps,
but computationally slow), and our processes (chain of command, protocols,
etc.) all mean we won't have nanosecond responses to most situations.
But then, I think we're getting into territory that was done to death in the
last quarter.... (human ships vs other options). I'd assume in this
environment (low fraction of C combat) that hyper vel railguns were in fact a
viable option both as an attack and as a defence (interceptor role).
Tom.
/************************************************
Tony spake thusly upon matters weighty: But language is different. How do you
figure out word
> meanings? How do you work out their grammar? Is there a first person
And you have to have the same sense of perception as the aliens or at least be
able to understand them.
> ("What do you mean they use Windows? When the hell did Bill Gates
If it's an ID4 alien, it would be Mac Compatible. (Although why in God's name
you'd want to be, I can't imagine....)
> All in good fun :)
As always. Tom.
> At 18:11 21/04/98 -0700, you wrote:
I agree with you on the UN priorities. But UN priorities aren't nessecary the
priorites of everybody else, particularly those nations who've just had prime
real estate leveled by a Kravak fleet. I also agree with that it is the
processes involved that are important but I disagree that that is the hardest
part to understand or duplicate. Sure
if the process is dependent on materials/components the job of
replicating it is going to take longer, if it isn't then you should be able to
get the same result using different (ie Human) componenets. Besides if the
Humans have MDC from DSII then they're on the way to railguns (unless I
completely misunderstood what was meant). Of all the UN priorites that you
have, language and starcharts will be the most difficult of all things to
understand. Physics works the same in all parts of the universe (well for
practical purposes anyway if you're not a cosmologist, particle physist....)
so you should be able to figure out what is going on. But language is
different. How do you figure out word meanings? How do you work out their
grammar? Is there a first person singular form? Etc, etc, etc.... As for
getting starchart info, you have to be able to read their language, figure out
their symbology, communicate with their computers operating system.... ("What
do you mean they use Windows? When the hell did Bill Gates speak to them?)
All in good fun:)
In my campaigan I was/am/wishful thinking planning to run each
player conducted research through Labs which had to specialise in one of 5
areas. There is a sixth area but this is alien (UN too) tech that a player can
only research upon capturing an example. Each new device (I've pinched quite a
lot from the web and here) needed a random number (d100 typically) of research
points to develop. A large heavily populated planet should only be able to
support 1 of each Lab. Work from Labs proceeds at a random rate each turn
(with a max limit). If you capture tech from another player (Human) the
research rate is doubled and there are no zero results. Now if the players
came across alien tech, they could research it, but only at the original rate,
there is no accelerated rate for alien tech. The amount of research was random
(d100) but I have been thinking that perhaps
there needed to be a modifier here (say +50) to make it even harder.
I'd say that if you captured an entire ship, you should be able to replicate
the preformance of most of it's systems pretty quick. (Button A activates
protrusion F which makes bloddy great hole in space dock
door!).
Notice I have said performance here. You won't make the same (or identical)
components but you will make something very much the same that does the same
thing (see "This A batt is as good as..." posts). I wasn't thinking that there
would be much difference between Human and Kravak railgun preformance (fleet
commanders would insist that they be the same if not better). As for
metallurgy that is another question. I very much doubt we would make much
sense of these quickly. And if we did understand them we may not be able to
duplicate the result. Take for example submarines (this is probably going to
start something by itself). Why aren't American subs made of titanium? It is
afterall the strongest metal know. It is also very expensive but that is
sometimes not a consideration in defence matters (ie B2 stealth bomber). The
Soviets used to make a number of their attack sub classes out of titanium. To
cut costs the same design would be made in a cheap version out of steel and
the other a top of the line titanium model. The Soviets did this because they
were able to manipulate titanium in much the same ways as the rest of us do
with steel, but that no other nation was able to do with titanium in the
nessecary amounts. So back to the Kravak. I don't think the Humans would be
able to make Kravak type hulls for a very long time (no Kravak type armour for
the Humans) nor copy their drive technology which would probably be reliant on
their metallurgy (I am thing reaction/rocket engines here). Besides
while the Kravak tech is different it isn't supposed to be too far in front of
the Humans (or have I misread MT) who already have MDC and Gauss rifles (which
are basically railguns as I see it). As for UN priorties, I think they would
focus on communicating with and understanding the Kravak (language, social
structure, etc), where they were, weapons and armour, drive systems. Most
nations however would put weapons and armour first and then reverse everything
else ("Does known' their language help me kill 'em doc?"). Hope this all
answers you questions.
Tony. twilko@ozemail.com.au
> At 10:12 22/04/98 +1000, you wrote: