LOL!
LORD, the MIGHTY GREEN MACHINE can pummel itself better than anyone else ever
could!
knocks from the MARINES are like LOVETAPS compared to what the ARMY can and
does do to ITSELF after about every 20 years of built up bullshit!
due for another self pummeling NOW.
officer's airborne school, NCOs airborne school, women's airborne school,
"hire" (i heard the CG of the RECRUITING COMMAND actually say hire) special
forces and rangers off the street and out of those ivy league schools....
the day JUST ANY WANKER/WANKLESS WONDER can become a RANGER< AIRBORNE,
or SPECIAL FORCEs after kintergarten training is the end of special missions
forces....
and a made in CHINA black beret does not an ELITE ARMY MAKE, but it does
destroy one of the symbols of RANGER eliteness......
(this is a sad a joke as seeing soldiers wearing EXPERT INFANTRY BADGES as
part of their ticket punching promotion packages! every EIB owner i ver met
was a TOTAL LOSS in REAL COMBAT where the CIBs and CMBs are won the hard way!)
something desk generals have been trying to do since WW II.
DAWGIE
> At 5:10 PM -0600 3/29/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
[snip]
> and a made in CHINA black beret does not an ELITE ARMY MAKE, but it
Well, I'm not sure why they had to go with Black Beret's. I suspect the funny
looks I've gotten from some folks while driving the Ferret around with the
appropriately black Royal Tank Regiment Beret has something to do with
it...Mind you as soon as I dismount from the ferret I take it off. It just
seems more comfortable wearing the beret in there as its far too easy to bash
your forehead on some sharp projection or edge. The beret makes a nice pad and
buffers the headphones nicely. I'd use a CVC helmet if there was one for the
Larkspur harness, but there isn't.
They could have gone with OD Berets and made everyone happy. Course, I can't
understand why the Rangers went with Black Berets as the Germans and the
British use black for Tanks. Green or Tan are for elite Commando and SAS
units. At least US airborne uses the correct Red for airborne beret.
SPECIAL FORCES WEAR GREEN BERETS THE US ARMY.
I see NO reason for the majority of the ARMY to wear any berets or blouse
their pants.
those were symbal of distinction; not for tank drivers, cannoncockrs, aircrew,
clerks, jerks, and REMF commandoes to parade around in.
the plain old garrison cap was quite suffieint for wear with CLASS As, and the
plan old fatigue cap or bush hat for field uniforms without helmets.
nothing but REMF bullshit, posturing, and politics involved in the decision.
like ginving women COMBAT slots in ARMY combat units and then having to
withdraw them before COMBAT deployments.
pure BS....
> At 8:46 AM -0600 3/30/02, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Well, aren't Rangers a form of special forces?
The British use the following colors for berets to my understanding
Black Royal Tank Regiment and Royal Armored Corps (Dates back to WWII) Dk
Brown Royal Hussars Green Royal Marine Commandos Dk Green Army Commandos Tan
SAS OD Regular Army
Scarlet Para's/Airborne
Light Blue Royal Army Air Corps
> I see NO reason for the majority of the ARMY to wear any berets or
*shrug* Such distinctions give different units their own identity. The
continued use by the Cavalry units to wear black stetsons.
> those were symbal of distinction;
Remember, tank drivers had their own unique status back in the day as the
whole concept of mechanized warfare was very new. Being able to keep your tank
running during a battle in the old days was a pretty serious job.
I do agree that the decision to go with a black beret for the entire US Army
is a bit daft. I personally think, going with a basic OD Beret would have been
correct. Even so, if the Rangers were to switch to another color beret, I
think things would eventually settle in back to normal.
> the plain old garrison cap was quite suffieint for wear with CLASS As,
I will grant that. Were I Shinseki, I'd have shifted to the berets but not one
that an elite unit had a connection to already.
> nothing but REMF bullshit, posturing, and politics involved in the
REMF nothing. I thouhgt it was the Brass that had the final choice...
> like ginving women COMBAT slots in ARMY combat units and then having
I think those women if they are able to train for combat, should go into
combat. Russian women were fighting and dying in WWII.
THE BRASSHATS ARE NOW, ALWAYS HAVE BEEN FULL OF REMFS.
FORMER COMBAT COMMAND OFFICERS AND GENERAL OFFICERS BECOME REMF WHEN THEY
BECOME INVOLVED IN PENTAGON POLITICS AND PC....
RANGERS ARE A SPECIAL FORCE, AND AIRBORNE IS ALSO A SPECIAL FORCE, SO NO
ARGUMENT WITH BERETS FOR THEM.
BUT THE REST...
PURE POLITICAL BS....
I would like to observe that the CAVALRY wore a black beret in the U.S. Army
before the Rangers did. The cavalry regiments in Germany were authorized to
wear them from about 1973 or so (don't remember exactly, but it was well
before I returned to CONUS in October 1974). When I reported to 1st Cavalry
Division at Fort Hood, they had been wearing black berets for some
considerable time as well. The 6th Air Cavalry Brigade were the ones with the
stetsons. This is all about 5 years before the first of the new Ranger
battalions was formed (about 1977-78 if I recall correctly). A "special"
force is in the eye of the beholder. The cavalry regiments and the 1st Cavalry
Division both considered themselves special, and performed accordingly, and
none of those units could be considered REMF. As far as politics, the Airborne
(at least the 82nd and XVIII Airborne Corps) is (or at least was when I was
stationed there) a political swamp.
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 8:01 PM -0500 3/30/02, Robert W. Eldridge wrote:
Army
> before the Rangers did. The cavalry regiments in Germany were
Was it just the 6th Air Cav? No others? I thought the whole stetson thing was
a general Cav thing, but I guess my understanding is wrong. At least some US
armored forces wear the correct color beret.
> At 03:06 30/03/02 -0500, Ryan wrote:
I take it these are WWII vintage British Army Commandos, as they British
Army scrapped all their commando units in 1946(?). The only Commando units
today are of course the Royal Marines.
Cheers
> At 2:11 PM +1000 3/31/02, Derek Fulton wrote:
Aye. Thats correct. I was thinking of the ones I knew, then went to my books
on various units from WWII to modern times. Not all of them were represented
for modern times, but some were. The tribal nature of the British Army makes
it difficult when you are also trying to get a grasp of vehicle specifics as
well. Heck, just keeping all the various regiments straight is hard. Royal
Green Jackets, Royal Hussars, Scots Greys, Scots Guards, HLI, KOSLI, KOSB,
Glosters, East Anglians, etc, etc, etc,
Still the point is that berets can be more than one color in a given army.
Given the British army's tribal nature, lots of variation and unit pride can
result from being in "this unit". Granted, you don't need to wear it in the
form of head wear, it can also be worn on the sleeve. Frankly I find it more
interesting that some units are different than others. Espically with a long
history a unit is more likely to go with a different uniform. The stetsons
(apparently limited) and yellow scarfs are the best that I can think of in the
case of US Cav units. Why those units don't do more to really stand out is
beyond me.
[quoted original message omitted]
> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 15:06:48 -0500
Red for MP's isn't it?
> > The British use the following colors for berets to my understanding
Hmm... IIRC, their nickname is red-_caps_. (which may be a parallal to
a
nasty mythical boogie) I don't _think_ they wear berets, but I could
very easily be wrong.
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 08:37 1/04/02 +1000, you wrote:
> > > The British use the following colors for berets to my
I could be wrong TOO but I think berets have become standard uniform of the
day in the British army, obviously there are exceptions. The Buzby (if that's
how you spell it, big furry hat) the Guard units wear for ceremonial duties.
Perhaps a Brit can enlighten us:)
Cheers
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> case of US Cav units. Why those units don't do more
Because in the United States Army, we have 1
regulation, AR 670-1, which covers uniforms. As near
as I can figure, each Brit regiment just sort of makes it up as they go along.
> --- DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Side note: Most generals are combat vets, until recently generally vets of
Vietnam as platoon leaders and company commanders.
> RANGERS ARE A SPECIAL FORCE, AND AIRBORNE IS ALSO A
So tell me, who's "More Special": A Cav Scout who's been to jump school and
Ranger school and is in a Mechanized Division, or a leg clerk in a Finance
Section in an Airborne Division? Guess which one gets their red beret?
I'm just curious.
> --- DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> those were symbal of distinction;
When? 1960s and 1970s Cav were authorized black berets, and there were a large
number of others as well.
> like ginving women COMBAT slots in ARMY combat
That doesn't happen. Units deploy "as is" (or more
likely, with more bodies pulled in from non-deploying
units).
> --- DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> the day JUST ANY WANKER/WANKLESS WONDER can become a
Airborne has been generic light infantry in all but exceptional circumstances
(knocking off the Panamanian Defense Force, which could have been done by a
pack of agressive kindergarteners) ever since the invention of
the Surface-to-Air Missile. You can't make combat
jumps in the face of air defenses. Last real shooting
war, the 82nd made a truck-borne assault like it was
1943 all over again and they were the 5th Infantry Division or something. In
Vietnam, where the Cong didn't exactally have the most sophisticated air
defenses there were what, 1 or 2 jumps and both of them were brigade or
smaller?
As for Rangers and SF, the guys they are pulling off the street go through the
same training everyone else does. And they seem to be doing a damn sight
better in Afghanistan (in terms of accomplishing their mission) than they did
30 years ago in another Asian country I could mention.
> and a made in CHINA black beret does not an ELITE
1)The ones made in China weren't issued.
2)Anyone who became a Ranger to get a piece of felt had the wrong motivations
for becoming a Ranger. And any Ranger who lets that crap affect the way he
does his job is not the paragon of professionalism that they have been
claiming to be.
> At 9:08 PM -0800 3/31/02, John Atkinson wrote:
It depends on the prevailing conditions. During WWII, there were standing
orders stating that unit, brigade, battalion and division
flashes/signs/insignia/badges weren't to be worn. Pretty much over
the course of WWII various units ignored the orders to a larger or
lesser degree. Such that re-enactors have their own little fields of
study when it comes to identifying a particular soldier in a photo as
belonging to say, the 51st Highland division, 153rd Infantry Brigade, 5th Bn
Black Watch just from little bits of felt on his BD shoulders. Due to the
amount of road signage that the 51st HD left, some people took to calling them
the 51st Road Decorators...
Still, one has to find some humor in the whole attitude. The current trend in
British units that have resisted being amalgamated or disbanded would give
congress, the Joint Chiefs fits and most of the
brass not working in _that_ formation.
My $.02: I think the shift is foolish, but only for the reason that I would
rather have a bill on my cover to help keep the sun out of my eyes.
> On Sat, 2002-03-30 at 16:24, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
WELL, NOW.
i never called the cav (which is a fight unit) REMF, but the cav has its share
of REMF. last i knew, the nmbers crunched out at about 1 fighting soldier per
9 support troops in US ARMY DIVISIONS of all types.
LORDS above, now you are gonna tell me that the cav is free of politics and
useless brass too!
as for the beret, my friend, so the tankers and etc wore them in germany.
so?
and the cav wears that totally useless and silly looking cowbow hat and rides
horse in parades too.
looks nice, helps build a sense of uniqueness within a unit, BUT, it does not
signify the same thing that being a RANGER, SPECIAL FORCES, or AIRBORNE
soldier.
there is no way that being in an armored unit, or cavalry unit, leg infantry,
artillery or etc, can even begin to compare with the speciaist RANGER SCHOOL,
or SPECIAL FORCE SCHOOL, or AIRBORNE SCHOOL even in the new and most wonderful
yet version of THE GREEN MACHINE!
in the past the RANGER FLASH meant more than it apparently does now, just as
the AIRBORNE and SPECIAL FORCES insignia did.
yes-i would bet my last dollar that you have politics in every arm ,
branch or corps of the US ARMY, as well as useless BRASS, and REMF up the
gazoo.
and let us not forget those ever wonderful assholes catgorized as civilians
accompaning the military in the field either.
or those mobs of DOD civilians who have their own politics and versions of
BRASS as well.
and civilian political appointees.
and in the rest of the ARMED FORCES too.
OUR ARMED FORCES and everyone else's has these folks too.
the result is that those at the wet and nasty end of the action often pay for
the oversights, undersights, and etc.
and if you want to tell me that there is not a feeling of we can do
without special forces troops amongst the herd, LOL, you are deluding
yourself!
DAWGIE
On 1-Apr-02 at 11:31, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net (DAWGFACE47@webtv.net)
wrote:
> yes-i would bet my last dollar that you have politics in every arm ,
Welcome to the real world(tm). It doesn't matter if you are military, tech
support, education, or whatever. As long as you are part of an organization
there will be politics getting in the way of those in the trenches doing their
jobs. The consequences are worse for those in the military but it's all the
same problem. Often the politics is shared by those in the trenches.
THAT FINANCE CLERK IS A REMF AND YOU DAMNED WELL KNOW IT.
AND BEING A GENERAL WITH COMBAT EXPERIENCE AS A YOUNG OFFICER DOES NOT NOW,
AND NEVER HAS PREVENTED THEM FROM BECOMING USELESS BRASS MORE CONCERNED WITH
CAREER CHOICES AND POLITICS THAN BEING A REAL SOLDIER.
AND YOU DAMNED WELL KNOW THAT TOO.
THE PRIZE OF THE LITTER FOR THE AMERICAN ARMY IN THE RVN ER WAS NAMED
WESTMORELAND.
PARAPHRASING THE GREAT MAN HIMSELF, WHEN ASKED WHY HE DID NOT BE MORE TRUTHFUL
ABOUT RVN STATUS;
"WHO WANT TO GIVE THEIR BOSS BAD NEWS? I DID NOT WANT TO BE THE GENERAL THAT
TOLD PRESIDENT JOHNSON THINGS WERE NOT GOING AS GOOD AS HE THOUGHT"
PRICELESS.
BACK TO THAT CAV SCOUT!
DOES HE WEAR HIS AIRBORNE WINGS?
IF SO, ENOUGH SAID ABOUT HIS STATUS AS A PARATROOPER.
DOES HE WEAR A RANGER FLASH?
AGAIN ENOUGH SAID ABOUT HIS STATUS AS A RANGER.
DAWGIE
> --- DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
Then what's all the fuss about his damn headgear?
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 10:27:32 -0600 (CST) DAWGFACE47@webtv.net writes:
<snip>
> and let us not forget those ever wonderful assholes catgorized as
Normally I don't challenge you on something but you are a little too
broad brush with this one for me - There are more then a few (NIMA -
National Imagery and Mapping Agency) types who have, are and are willing to
deploy yo combat zones to support military types. The ones who went to a
certain East European Country some time ago really got to use those mine
recognition course lessons more then once or twice.
Most were young but some where my age, most were male but a few were female,
most only saw mines after someone else spotted them and identified them but
not all. And they were deeply appreciated by those
they served (even though *we* consider it an /honor/ to serve our
country's (and our allies') best and bravest /.)
Not all civilians working with the military are useless, Dawgie.
Gracias,
because the headgear is worn as a unit.
'never said all civiliand in DOD or working with the ARMY re useless.
i said assholes. too many think, IMO, and based upon direct contact in the 60s
and early 70s, that they are beyond the bounds of military control and are too
wonderful to be hurt, or cause others to become hurt.
and i have the scrs to prove my statement.
DAWGIE
The Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (my family Regiment) wear a red flash on
the beret as a battle honour from the American rebellion (The Paoli Massacre).
When painting NAC feel free to put 'tribal' insignia on. Hell make them up
- traditions had to start somewhere.
John
> At 23:44 30/03/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Dr PJD Lambshead Head, Nematode Research Group Department of Zoology The
Natural History Museum London SW7 5BD, UK.
Tel +44 (0)20 7942 5032
Fax +44 (0)20 7942 5433
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:14:16 -0600 (CST) DAWGFACE47@webtv.net writes:
I kind of that that impression. Okay, I misunderstood. Body language
and voice make understanding so mush easier then e-mail. Sigh.
> i said assholes.
Yeah we have a few of these. But upper management has never, to my knowledge,
deployed to a 'field site' where you wear the "funny clothes" <grin> currently
popular with teenaged kids...
too many think, IMO, and based upon direct contact in
> the 60s and early 70s, that they are beyond the bounds of military
You must not have been trying hard enough to 'control' them - you can't
knock them out by hitting them on the head, you have to hit a vital
system, say the wallet - <grin> and yes I *do* have a mental list... A
potential combat zone is not your basic TDY fer sure.
> and i have the scrs to prove my statement.
No doubt.
I am going to drop this thread because I think this kind of conversation is
best done face to face. Even among friends. You were thinking of specific um,
'persons' whereas I was under the impression it 'most of
them' comment (Them being Us to Me <VBG> Couple of my co-workers just
got back from, shall we say, overseas...)
Gracias,