As an US Army vet I'll toss my.02 in...
I think the beret is stupid.
The old ball cap was a very distinctive and unique part of the army uniform.
When you saw a group of NATO soldiers it was pretty easy to pick out the
Americans by the 'ball caps'. In addition, the cap points back to the Army's
history- remember the Civil War? Vietnam too...It also points to the
American people and the national pastime- baseball. An easy visual link
to the American people.
Berets were saved for the 'special' troops who went through a lot to earn the
right to wear the thing, unlike other militaries around the world who give the
things away as part of the uniform. The "Army of One" concept wants
to glamorize the individual-guess it slipped past the PR types that came
up with that that the beret was an individual award in and of its self.
I was a tanker, and I was happy with my ball cap. When I joined the ROTC I was
given a Beret because I 'joined' a 'Ranger' platoon... It just didn't feel
right to me to wear the thing because I DID'T EARN IT! Guess pride in the US
Army is being sacrificed in the name of making everyone feel 'good'. Kinda
leaves a Vet feeling sick.
As an aside to make this little rant of mine 'on topic', I'm considering a
conversion to a few of my NAC troops to give them a sort of American look (my
guys have 1st ID patchs on their shoulders), and I'm thinking about maybe the
old 'ball cap'... any ideas on how to do that conversion?
HOPS VINCET! ATWTMATMUTATB
> At 3:59 PM -0500 3/31/02, Scott Case wrote:
Good point. I still think the US army could benefit from a little bit of
tribalism. Not that it has to manifest in the way that it does in the British
Army. The Cav guys have the right idea. From most accounts, they seemed to
derive some thing special from having those stetsons and really stood out. Not
quite the same as just giving everyone the same black beret. Army of one and
everyone has the same headwear still?
> As an aside to make this little rant of mine 'on topic', I'm
Miliput/putty. How to keep the brims from breaking I'm not sure.
Perhaps a little tiny plastic brim stuck into the putty once the beret part
has been cut away?
If you are feeling ambitious you could always do a couple of variations and
then do some resin cast bits so you don't end up having to sculpt from scratch
every cap. You could even do them as one sided casts, with a flat spot where
theh at meets the head. A little putty and fill work and each one should match
up easy.
Eli
> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 12:10:04 -0500
gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> At 3:59 PM -0500 3/31/02, Scott Case wrote:
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
The combat ability of an army is inversly proportional to the number of berets
worn by the troops.
Bye for now,
John's right, anybody who'd wear two berets is an absolute loss as a combat
soldier.
Unless it's Skippy,
http://www.skippyslist.com
Well, maybe Skippy isn't allowed either.
> John Leary wrote:
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
> At 03:59 31/03/02 +0000, Scott wrote:
Maybe once but not any more, base ball caps are everywhere, commerical
companies stick logos on them and hand them out, other militaries use them. A
part of the uniform for the working day on board ship in the Royal Australian
Navy is a baseball cap with the ship's name, etc on it.
I suppose it's the down side to "Cultural Imperialism":) everyone likes to use
a good idea. Just think how the French felt in the 30's (?) when armies of the
world adopted the beret ( with the advent of mechanization?), after all it was
part of the french national dress.
Cheers
> At 12:43 PM -0800 3/31/02, Michael Llaneza wrote:
Is this guy for real? And has he been brought up on charges yet?
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
> As an US Army vet I'll toss my .02 in...
You and everybody else on the damn planet.
> I think the beret is stupid.
> From a practicality point, you're damn right.
So is starching your BDUs.
So is spit-shining your boots.
So is that ridiculous way we roll our sleeves.
Guess what? Army uniforms are NOT designed with practicality as a driving
consideration.
> The old ball cap was a very distinctive and unique
It's still easy--we're the ones with flashes with
crests on 'em. Everyone else uses cap badges by them selves. The French and
some other nations wear their berets differently than we do also. Oh, and
everyone uses different patterns of BDU.
> points back to the Army's
The BDU cap is NOT a Civil War era forage cap.
> Vietnam too...It
Uhh... and in the American Revolution we wore tricorns. Want that back?
> also points to the
No it doesn't--the BDU cap is not the same as a
baseball cap.
> Berets were saved for the 'special' troops who went
When was this? Oh, post 1980. 20 years isn't a tradition, it's a fad. Before
that (1960s and 70s) everyone and their second cousin wore berets.
> through a lot to earn
Bullshit. The black beret had to do with being ASSIGNED to a Ranger unit,
which is at the whim of PERSCOM. I've known FISTers with nothing but jump
wings who have black berets from the time they were assigned to Ranger bats.
On the other hand, most people who went to Ranger school never were authorized
black berets because they never were in a Ranger unit.
> around the world who
Yeah, the US doesn't have things like Unit Citations, Fourrageres, Infantry
distinctions, etc. that are handed out as part of being part of a certain MOS
or in a certain unit.
> "Army of One" concept wants
Not quite true--there's a nuance to that ad campaign
that slips past me as well, but then again most people on the list aren't in
the target demographic.
> the PR types that came up
No, it was a unit distinction.
I might make one or two other comments on-list, but
this is really an off-list topic, and furthermore one
I'm sick of.
It boils down to one simple fact: Right, Wrong, or Indifferent, Army
Regulations are written by committees of officers at the direction of general
officers. In this case, the Chief of Staff issued a direct order, and it's
getting a little old hearing everyone whining that those of us who wear the
damn thing somehow aren't "good enough" to wear what was originally a French
woman's hat, which was adopted in black first by the Whermacht because black
is Panzertruppen branch color and they wanted a beret because you can wear
radio headphones over it.
> --- John Leary <john_t_leary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The combat ability of an army is inversly
Considering that the only first-class armies on the
planet are in one of three categories:
NATO Israeli Antipodean
And the entire Israeli Army and AFAIK, the armies of every NATO member wear
berets (and possibly Aussies,
but I think they run more to bent-up
cowboy^H^H^H^H^H^H slouch hats) I'd have to disagree.
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Don M <dmaddox1@hot.rr.com> wrote:
[quoted original message omitted]
> Uhh. . . and in the American Revolution we wore
I saw pics of some US unit in Vietnam starching their boonie hats into
tri-corners. I've always wanted to try that ...
-Ted
may not be assigned to a ranger battalion, john, but, unless times have
changed, all ranger school graduates wear a RANGER FLASH....
and as a member of the NEW ACTION ARMY of the 60s and 70s, y'all are WRONG!
everyone and his brother did not wear a beret.
SPECIAL FORCES did.
LRRP personnel did.
advisors assigned to ARVN beret wearing units did.
USN SEALS and some RIVERINE FORCES did.
some cav units in germany worn their version of the BUNDESWEHR tanker beret
along with BUNDESWEHR tanker boots.
most of the US ARMY wore the basebll cap or the jungle hat.
before that the US ARMY wore a "sharp" looking flat topped and braced
cap (see FIDELE CASTRO-he is still wearing one), and before that a cap
very similiar to the one worn by the USMC.
the types of military kubuki you mentioned are just that military kubuki
-theater, or show and tell, with NO REAL FIELD USE.
berets are useless in the field. blousing bands are useless too.
a short gaiter or legging worn over the combat boots and lower trouser legs
serves a more practical function.
squarecut fatigue shirts were made to be worn OUTSIDE of the trousers, but
REMF and BRASS thought it looked tacky.
old style fatigue pants looked "smarter" but were not as practicall as the
trousers with leg cargo pockets they replaced in the 50s.
practical shirts and trousers started to re-appear with jungle fatigues
and now BDUs (unaltered) with cargo pockets and general loose fiting scruffy
look.
"smart looking " does not work in the field-function does.
if you want to be sarcastic about wearing tricornes, why not bring out shakos,
prussian caps and leather spiked helmets too?
all wool uniforms for universal wear?
(yah i know about the cotton uniforms worn in the US ARMY during summer months
long before anyone else wore them)
leather stocks anyone? and what about the NOBLE PIKE?
DAWGIE
> --- Michael Llaneza <maserati@earthlink.net> wrote:
I yield a point to Micheal.
Bye for now,
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Considering that the only first-class armies on the
Also note that all three categories built their reputations with armis built
from, put very simply, farmers with the franchise i.e. the Western
military tradition of volunteer armies made up of personnel recruited in large
numbers from farm communities. This goes way back to the Greek city states as
a winning formula for putting together first class infantry units. The
Russians made do with just farmboys, and did pretty well in WW2 (as well as
against the Japanese in 1939). The Japanese did
well against the Chinese, and US/UK troops given the advantage of
surprise and overwhelming force but note that they set out to emulate European
military systems as a deliberate policy. The Chinese need a better officer
class to make second rate, and will also need to make some social and cultural
reforms at all levels to gain the initiative to
compete with a first rate army.
I'm not sure what John meant by "oxymoron", so I'm asking: how do you mean
"oxymoron".
> John Leary wrote:
> --- John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:
Interesting. You do not rate the Royal Marine Commandoes, the Parachute
Regiment or The French Foreign Legion then? John
> At 11:56 31/03/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> --- Scott Case <tgunner@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dr PJD Lambshead Head, Nematode Research Group Department of Zoology The
Natural History Museum London SW7 5BD, UK.
Tel +44 (0)20 7942 5032
Fax +44 (0)20 7942 5433
> At 10:31 AM +0100 4/2/02, John Lambshead wrote:
Or the SAS. They wear tan berets as far as I know.
> --- Michael Llaneza <maserati@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm not sure what John meant by "oxymoron", so I'm
ANTIPODE: A direct or diametrical opposite. OXYMORON: A paradoxical conjuction
of terms.
Bye for now,
> --- John Lambshead <pjdl@nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
A few units makes the thing a distinction, all units makes it general issue.
(You naturally have an argument that the FFL IS the French army, but I
digress.)
> At 11:56 31/03/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Examples of oxymoron American intelligence German humour British cuisine
Italian organisation French manners Australian culture Spanish efficiency etc,
etc
(PS if any race, creed or culture has been insulted by inadvertently not
being insulted with the rest of us then I apologise for my lack of
imagination). John
> At 16:50 02/04/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> --- Michael Llaneza <maserati@earthlink.net> wrote:
Dr PJD Lambshead Head, Nematode Research Group Department of Zoology The
Natural History Museum London SW7 5BD, UK.
Tel +44 (0)20 7942 5032
Fax +44 (0)20 7942 5433
You forgot: Canadian aggression
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2002, at 12:55 AM, John Lambshead wrote:
> Examples of oxymoron
On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:34:18 -0800, Tony Christney <tchristney@telus.net>
wrote:
> You forgot:
You haven't seen a hockey game???