From: Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>
Date: Monday, January 01, 2001 01:27
Subject: Islamic Federation, was Re: [FT] OU & IC & FB3
> Nathan said:
> These would not need to roll a 6 to ram, but would
> Then what's the point? If the target's course is
Well, the suicide ship can fire off a rack or a few sub-
munition packs as well as ramming, whereas SMs have to get through whatever
defences the target has. Would we agree that ramming damage should be
calculated after weapons fire, so that (a) the ramming ship gets a chance to
launch these weapons, and (b) the target ship gets a chance to shoot down
suicide ships?
I'm sure there's a proper Arabic term for suicide volunteers, it's just
eluding me...
AEBrain said: Who's gonna do what? Rather than decide by having a vote, asking
the estimable Jon etc, I suggest that anyone who wants to can have a crack.
The rules are
as follows: a) You must write some PHB (Pseudo-Historical as opposed
to
Pseudo-Scientific) about the navy in question, much as in FB1.
No problem for the Islamic Fed, I'm just waiting for Jon to create the rest of
the mini's.
IF ships usually have:
- about 20-25% hull (to reflect less Damage Control training than,
say, a NAC crew)
- 5-10% armor
- thrust at least 4, usually 6
- FTL only on capital units (increase points cost by 10% if fighting a
one-off battle)
- 4 or more PDS, plus ADFC on most units
- weapons are usually B2, B3, or SMR
- fighters are usually on CV's rather than BB's; the CV's are supposed
to avoid combat as much as possible
This is the IF built ships--the Navy also has a number of units of FSE
and ESU origin which were donated after the Party of Righteousness overthrew a
corrupt and apostate regime. (The ESU was a bit confused as to the difference
between "donation" and "bribe", which is why there is now enmity between the
two nations). The Sultan is also the Protector of the Khalif (and since a
majority of the Faithful will not agree on an error, that in itself shows that
the figurehead of the Saeed rabble is a schismatic heretic). Military service
is compulsory; most of the crew volunteer for naval service if only to avoid
the army. Crew accomodations are spartan and
crew education is fairly limited--it works about the way the Soviet
navy worked, with petty officers and officers doing most of the
technical work--but morale is high and IF ships are quite aggressive.
Paint scheme is a bluish green with markings as yet to be determined.
Nathan said:
> Finally, just to throw a new idea into the FB3 pot, has
Every game. IF ships go *pop* fairly easily, especially the smaller ones.
> These would not need to roll a 6 to ram, but would
Then what's the point? If the target's course is predictable enough for a ram,
it's predictable enough to drop SMR on it.
However, I did design a one-hull-box, mass 8 stingboat, usually armed
with 2 needles or 4 submunitions. A swarm of these should encourage other
players to take FF and DD instead of just sticking with capitals, and I think
a stingboat would qualify as a "suicide unit" even if they don't intentionally
crash into the target.
> >> Finally, just to throw a new idea into the FB3 pot, has
Yes. But let's say you have an 8 mass stingboat ramming. Okay, you can take
four mass of weapons in the standard configuration (say 4 submunitions, 12
dice) and then ram with 1 point of hull to do 1 extra die of damage. Or you
can outfit it with 5 hull and no weapons and do a total of 5 dice of damage.
Somehow this doesn't seem worth it, particularly when you're expending 300
million credits each time you do this.
Now, you could pack the hull with explosives if you like. That converts your
ram ship into, well, the equivalent of a couple of salvo missile strikes,
except you have to get within 2mu instead of 6mu and your target can use all
its weapons, not just B1 and PDS, to pick you off on the way in.
> Laserlight wrote:
> IF ships usually have:
[snip]
> - FTL only on capital units (increase points cost by 10% if fighting a
...that's one more thing to look over: the tug/tender rules :-/
Side note: these +10% apply to *all* non-FTL ships, regardless of their
other equipment, so it's less of a problem than a Kra'Vak-specific
-10%.
Later,
I agree. The tug/tender rules need modification.
I do think that 10% is a little low however. If you build a FTL ship with
the same equipment as a non-FTL ship (including same number of hull
boxes,
or 10% of ship mass, whichever is greater), you end up with a 12-30%
increase in point cost for the ships.
Here are some of Laserlight's IF ships as example:
Ship Non-FTL FTL % increase
m/c m/c mass/points
Ahdath FF 20/72 23/81 15.0/12.5
ash Shaulah 8/30 11/39 37.5/30.0
Hasan as-Sabah 31/107 37/125 19.3/16.8
Qaws CLG 60/212 70/242 16.7/14.1
Saber CL 50/168 58/192 16.0/14.2
Sala ed-Din DH 34/118 40/136 17.6/15.2
Turcoman CL 50/172 58/196 16.0/13.9
Turs DD 24/88* 28/100 40.0/13.6
And take the following FB1 ships if converted
to non-FTL:
Ship Non-FTL FTL %
m/c m/c mass/points
Maximillian 87/294 100/333 13.0/13.2
Tsiolkovsky 129/519 150/584 16.3/12.5
Ark Royal 171/708 200/798 17.0/27.1
Foch 216/805 250/909 15.7/12.9
The above averages to 16.33...% increase in points. The amount varies with the
mass taken up by the systems and engine in relation to overall mass.
I would think that 115% multiplier would be best for non-FTL ships
that do not have the tug on the table.
* Turs is listed at mass 24 cost 91, but is optimized at 24/88 (same
equipment and hull boxes).
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org
-----
> -----Original Message-----
> Finally, just to throw a new idea into the FB3 pot, has
From: Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 12:39
Subject: Re: Islamic Federation, was Re: [FT] OU & IC & FB3
> Yes. But let's say you have an 8 mass stingboat ramming.
Yes, the only gain is the extra die of damage in the first example. I'm more
accustomed to dealing with FT designs where there would be more hull. Under FB
it does seem to make more sense to have more weapons on a very weak hull,
assuming that the strikeboats are numerous enough for survivability to not be
an issue. To put the case even further against ramming, the designs you have
in mind
appear to be only thrust-6, which doesn't give a very good
chance of ramming an undamaged (non-Swabian) target.
> Now, you could pack the hull with explosives if you like.
I hadn't thought of fitting out a ship with explosives, and the nearest thing
I can think of in the rules are the MT and FB1 missiles. Under MT, an
unspecified proportion of a mass 2 system does 2D damage, average 7. Under FB1
a perfect hit from 2 mass of salvo missiles of which an unspecified proportion
is warhead will do 6D damage, average 21. For this sort of damage (plus
whatever we can get for blowing up the drive) the rammer will probably need to
be VERY close to the target, so the ram rule will still be required.
To carry the analogy through to its conclusion, our suicide bomber is more
likely to be piloting an old freighter with holds full of things that go boom
into an unsuspecting space dock rather than attacking in open battle.
When you refer to 2mu range I presume you are thinking of the MT Battle Debris
rule; this would cause additional damage dependant on the speed of the target
as well as the rammer.
Game balance then becomes an issue, as a high-speed
head-on suicide run would be extremely unpleasant and
possible from beyond beam range, though I conceed that the chance of getting a
hit by blowing up early without a ram roll varies from slight to none.
I had always considered intentionally causing damage through FTL entrance or
exit to be unsporting, though it is almost impossible to distinguish between a
desperate attempt to escape and a deliberate suicide intended to damage the
enemy. The text of both FT and MT implies that ships are far more likely to
flee or strike than resort to these measures. Fortunately the IF as we
conceive them don't have the drives to throw away on this type of tactic.
If ramming with ships just won't work, what can be done with fighters? As far
as I recollect, a fighter ramming a ship has about as much effect as bug on a
windscreen. If a torpedo fighter that hits causes on average 5 points of
damage, I can't see an expendible fighter doing a great deal more, and this
probably means that fighters won't do the job either.
> At 2001.01.02 -0800 21:27, you wrote:
In our PBEM game, the ash Shaula put fear into me. 10 of them with a SMR could
have ruined my whole day. Most of the other options have a range of 12 of
less. Giving them a reach of 24, makes them fearful.
---
Nathan said, re IF Suicide Crews
> Yes, the only gain is the extra die of damage in the first
I don't really mind if he shoots at my sting boats--that way he's not
shooting at my cruisers or battleships. But I'd take 10 or more stingboats
(ash Shaulah means "the stinger") just to keep him
interested--preferably arriving at the same time as a SMR strike.
> To put the case even
The corvette design I'm thinking of is
Khabar CT Mass 12 Cost 42 2 Hull (mass 2) MD 9 (mass 5) No FTL 1 FCS (mass 1)
4 submunitions or 2 needles or other combination (mass 4)
(for wazirs or other high ranking ministers, use the wimp
version--delete FCS and weapons, add FTL + 2 armor + 2PDS. However,
the Sultan and most amirs feel that a battlecruiser is a better way to
travel--particularly in light of the fact that the *other* amirs also
travel via battlecruiser).
<snip>
> To carry the analogy through to its conclusion, our suicide
Yep. You can use cheaper ships--and cheaper pilots--doing it that
way. And a space station is a lot more profitable target than a warship.
> When you refer to 2mu range I presume you are thinking of
I was thinking of the ramming rules in FT--page 22, last paragraph.
Brian Bell said:
> In our PBEM game,
that was my "new version" Islamic Fed versus Brian's PAU, a couple of months
ago
> the ash Shaulah put fear into me. 10 of them
Makes *other people* fearful :-) Well, true, but I couldn't have hit
you with missiles for most of that time, since our battle was moving faster
than the missiles could. And I never did get them close enough to hit anyway,
although I have some mild hope that they influenced your maneuvers.
As it happens, half of the ash Shaulahs were loaded with submunitions, the
other half with needles.